Mr. Ray Hale
[b. 03/15/22]
[000 counter start #]
Today is the 29th of September, 2007. I am Matthew Rusthoven and I am interviewing Mr. Ray Hale at 8140 Township Line Road, Apartment 2110 [Indianapolis, Indiana. Mr. Hale was referred to me by my teacher, Mrs. Kathryn W. Lerch.] Mr. Hale is 85 years old and was born on
RH: You want the date?
MR: Yes.
RH: March the 15th, 1922.
MR: and served in World War II in the 6th Infantry Division
RH: Right.
MR: and held the following rank of division sergeant major. [ Ms. Linda Rusthoven attended this interview session. I transcribed and edited this tape November 2 – 23, 2007.]
RH: That’s right. That’s what I was when I ended my service, division sergeant major. I started out as a private.
MR: Okay. Tell me about your early life. Like how was life growing up? Obviously you went to the [Cincinnati] Reds games, as you told me, but, I guess, what was your father like? If you had any brothers or sisters what were they like?
[010]
RH: I had a sister. I still do. She is the only one in the family _[011]_ ¬¬¬¬ still here and she’s about, almost five years older than me. She lives in Cincinnati which is where we were both born and grew up. She was married in high school, she has two daughters and her husband has been dead maybe ten years I’d say-my brother-in-law-big guy, big man, successful career as a sales representative. Let’s see, what else did you want to know? My mother and father-they went through some very difficult times-the ’29 Depression.
[019]
My dad, at that time, was a foreman for the Cincinnati Frog & Switch Company making railroad parts, frogs and switches, and before very long after the Depression had started, why, the company went completely broke like a lot of companies did at that time. My dad lost his job and I was pretty darn young. I forget how old but I don’t think I was a teenager yet. I was close to it, but it was quite a shock. My dad didn’t have a job and couldn’t get one either. Nobody employed anybody-just laying people off and closing their companies. It was the worst Depression ever, since my time anyway. It was really serious. Of course, at the time, I was so young I didn’t really think too much about it other than my dad had lost his job and he was home and he was out looking for work and couldn’t find it, so he was seeing if he could cut the neighbors’ grass, which he did a lot, and shovel their snow in the wintertime. And he was without a job about two years, as I remember, and he finally got a job and, you know, the government got around to-I forget what they call it, but they helped people get employed and they paid them. So they worked for the government and my dad got a job like that and worked there like that several years and things started to get a little better and then he got another job like he had before with a different company because his company went down the tubes. But, yes, it’s a shocking experience when you’re growing up because you could see how your dad was so uptight and so disappointed in the situation because of his family, your wife and your mother, and my sister and I. But things got better. It was in the middle thirties at least before it got very much better for our family and there are almost—so many families hurt in this thing. It was a terrible Depression and I think the worst this country ever experienced.
MR: What was your initial reaction when you first found out what happened at Pearl Harbor?
[047]
RH: Well, I couldn’t believe it, of course. I was shocked and very concerned what would happen now and, just, I didn’t know whether this was a day at a time and I was doing the best I could each day. I was still in school. I was still in the earliest school when it first started about ’29. I was only seven years old then. But it was just an awful experience, Matt, to go through. I guess it was even worse for the young people that were older than me. They could understand the tragedy that took effect and what the future looked like at the time. I couldn’t see that and feel that until I grew older.
[060]
You know, I remember the first several years after the Depression, it was terrible and my dad was-I could tell even at my young age that it clearly affected him. He was so concerned about our family, as we all were. But things worked out over time and he finally got another job and a similar job to what he had at a different company and he worked his way to retirement. But I think it clearly affected him because he (?didn’t live?) too many years. He died—fifty-seven years old. My mother lived till she was ninety-two.
LR: Good genes in your family.
[069]
RH: Mostly on my mother’s side. This (?photo?)-this is my uncle up there. Yes. He was quite a guy. He was my mother’s brother and that’s my mother and dad on their wedding day there. And this is our son. He graduated from high school and this is the vice president of the company I worked for, Jones & Laughlin Steele Corporation. He was the vice president and he came to, at that time I think it was down in Louisville, Kentucky, and he came down to give our son this scholarship. So, you know, that helped me a whole lot in paying for college. Of course, at that time, it was a whole lot less than it is now. But, yes, that’s my wife and that’s our son when he was a high school graduate. He’s fifty-eight now. And that’s my grandmother and my mother’s mother, that’s my mother, dad and mother, and Uncle Arthur. That’s my dear wife and myself and
LR: That’s you in uniform.
RH: Yes, yes. I think I hadn’t been in the Army too long. I think that was about my-I had-it’s not a vacation in the Army, but I can’t even think of what they called it, but after my training that lasted about six weeks long, basic training they call it when you first go in the Army and I was at Ft. Leonard Wood, Missouri. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of that but it’s not too far from St. Louis. It’s still in existence.
MR: Fort. What’s it called? Fort?
[91]
RH: Fort, Ft., then Leonard, just like the name Leonard and then another name, Wood. That’s two words, Leonard Wood, Ft. Leonard Wood, Missouri. That’s where I had basic training.
[94]
After that my Division was assigned to—I remember it was San Luis Obispo, California, and we went there for desert training. We were destined for desert warfare overseas and they wanted us training for that and right in the middle of our training we heard that the European Army-I can’t think of the general’s name that was in charge, but he was very good-they defeated the Germans in Africa and the countries around there and so they didn’t need us to fight in the desert.
[104]
So they then sent us to- this was the biggest break I had in the service-they sent us to Hawaii, the island of Oahu, to train us for jungle training, jungle battle, fighting and we were in Hawaii for six months, all the time on the island of Oahu-a very close station.
[110]
Of course, our different companies and different regiments and our divisions were in different locations of training and I was in division headquarters of that division and I was very fortunate to be in division headquarters and that was due to my earlier training and education. When I went to work out of school, I got a job with a big steel corporation and it helped me get some good assignments in the service. As I said, they assigned me right after basic training to Division Headquarters, 6th Infantry Division. I started in the personnel division and I ended up as the head of the personnel division. When I was discharged that’s what I _[120]_.
MR: Were you drafted or did you enlist?
[122]
RH: I enlisted because I had a good friend that just lived up the street from me-I had a lot of good friends but this guy and I were real good friends-and we decided to enlist because we knew, just from everything that was happening in our area, in our neighborhood, that we’d be drafted within several months anyway. So we decided to enlist because we were told that we would be assigned to where we wanted to go. That turned out not to be true. I signed up for the United States Army Air Corps Ground Crew and my buddy signed up for the Quartermaster Corps, I think. But we both ended up in the 6th Infantry Division. When I questioned that I asked my officer-in-charge if I could-who would I talk to in questioning my assignment-it isn’t what I asked for. And he said, “Well, you can talk to the adjutant general in division headquarters but you’re going to have to see one of his assistants.” So I did. I went to the division headquarters, where they were located, and told one of the assistants that I wanted to talk to the adjutant general and he got me assigned there and I didn’t have to wait too long before they-I told the general that I had enlisted for the United States Air Corps Ground Crew and I ended up here in this infantry division and I said, “I don’t understand this.” He said, “Private, they don’t assign you where you want to go. They assign you where you’re needed.” I don’t know how many times I heard that. But that was the story. They didn’t let me go where I wanted to go. And there were a lot of others just like me, too, assigned, as I did, where they wanted you to go. But see it all worked out well for me and so I think that’s the way that I’m sure God had had in mind.
LR: _[153]_+
RH: Yes.
MR: Do you remember what basic training was like? Was it difficult or
[155]
RH: Some of it was quite difficult, Matt, yes, yes. Physically, yes. They had to be sure you were in good shape physically for what may be coming up for you and physically it was difficult and, of course, you got acquainted with firearms, which some young fellows were already acquainted with but I wasn’t because I’d never had a firearm, at that time, in my hand. So, it was an all learning experience for me and most of the fellows. And there was a lot of rifle training.
MR: Say that you were in division headquarters. I don’t think a lot of people know what that entailed in a general day so what did you do in division headquarters on a typical day?
[168]
RH: Well, it was mostly paperwork, you know.
[169]
We-the general of our division, he was a major general. He lost his life in the Philippine Islands. The Japanese got him with a rifle. He was up at the front checking, as a general has to do, and seeing what’s going on and, of course, he was-he thought he was far enough away from the action but he wasn’t and we lost him. He was a great guy. But, what was your question again?
MR: What did you do on a typical day?
RH: What did I do on what?
MR: A typical day in division headquarters.
[179]
RH: Oh, well, my job was a lot of paperwork, a lot of paperwork, and we had to keep track of the whole division you know. They had, as I remember-let’s see-four regiments, about four field artillery battalions, and then they had a bunch of smaller companies, quartermaster corps, and _[184]_+ and of course we had a pretty highly ranked medical officer, a doctor, and he had his assistants to keep track of everybody’s health, particularly the injured or wounded.
MR: What was it like? You mentioned in the pre-interview that you went to New Guinea.
RH: Yes.
MR: What was it like the first day you arrived?
[191]
RH: It was a real shock, Matt. I didn’t know what to expect, none of us did. But it was, I mean, it was jungle and we had a little sand on the beach, and it wasn’t very deep, and we would walk right into the jungle and we had to go out into the jungle and we had to cut some trees down and all that, so we had to put up tents. And, of course, we didn’t stay there too long.
[197]
There was about, I don’t know, four or five divisions that invaded in New Guinea at the same time and one or two of those were at the southernmost point and up, I don’t know, several miles in, there were two more divisions and then up several more, more than two more divisions. And what we would do is, even the Japanese-everybody was in the jungle-the Japanese and we had to be, too, because that’s where we would meet them. And the fighting and shooting at each other, and bombing from the skies out of the airplanes-they had to be awful careful with the airplanes, the Air Corps, so they didn’t bomb us instead of the Japanese. And that did happen a time or two. Lost men, too. But I think overall they did a good job really considering what they were up against. It took us a whole year, Matt, to conquer New Guinea. It took us a year. We started at the southernmost point of the island and we went up to the northernmost point. It included two divisions that were maybe twenty two miles apart and then the Japanese-you had Japanese in between you like _[214]_ and they either surrendered or took their own lives. A lot of them did. The Japanese did.
MR: How many were there in a division?
RH: Huh?
MR: How many were there in a division?
[218]
RH: About 15,000 – 18,000. I’m trying to remember. A division is big-the two regiments and field artillery battalions, and there’s a lot of men in both of those, and then there’s a lot of special companies to support the fighters.
MR: Did you see a lot of combat during your tour?
[224]
RH: No, I didn’t see a lot. I heard a lot in New Guinea and the Philippines too. Saw more combat in the Philippines. Didn’t see what we were told-the general told us in the Philippines from New Guinea. We were in on the invasion of the island of Luzon in the Philippines and I remember the general calling many of us together at the _[231]_ who were enlisted men but had some responsibility to keep the young men in our company safe as we could do, and keep them as healthy as we could do, and take care of them when they were wounded and got killed.
[240]
And so it was a-quite an experience at the time and, of course, as you look back on it after you’re much older, as I am now, you know how fortunate you were I was not wounded. And there was shooting, bullets and shrapnel, and bombs bursting-very fortunate. Of course, many of us were that way.
[246]
Many of us weren’t. Man
y were killed and many were very badly injured. And those who were injured, why, you could see them. They’d be in tents-handmade tents, felt tents-you know, where the wounded were kept. The doctors who served in the Army, why, they were caring for them. It was quite an experience, it really was. I never had anything like that. I never dreamed of having anything like that. Everyday was new and different and, of course, after a year or so, why, I got pretty well accustomed to it and knew what to expect. We did-we spent a year fighting in New Guinea and we spent a year fighting in the Philippine Islands on the island of Luzon and that’s when the war ended.
[257]
We were just-we just about took care of Luzon-we were up in the northernmost part of the island of Luzon and-I’ll never forget-of course, we knew that our Army was making some progress in the South Pacific, but we had no idea that all of a sudden-a lot of us had radios that we kept with us, carried with us and, of course, you could always get some station from someplace. Of course, a lot of times they were Japanese stations, talk in Japanese, but you could get Americans, too, and the news, and I’ll never forget the day it happened. We heard over the radio, quite a few of us in our division headquarters heard, that the United States was dropping these bombs on Japan. They hit the city of Nagasaki and another city. I can't remember the name of the other one.— Nagasaki and something else. And they told us on the radio that they just wiped out the cities and they dropped those atomic bombs and we had never heard of an atomic bomb. We couldn’t imagine that they dropped one bomb on the city and that they wiped out the whole city. But they were telling us on the radio, this announcer, that this was a heck of a change in the state of the war on our-for our side. Of course I was in the Philippines and the war ended shortly after that-the bombing of the atomic bombs. You know, all the time I was in the Army I, we couldn’t even believe that one bomb could do that kind of damage. But it did and that’s what turned the war around right there.
[287]
So, the war ended shortly after we got finished in the Philippines, but then I remember the general pulled us all together and someone said, “And we’ll soon be on our way home.” But instead of being on our way home they sent us to Korea—The other way. We were in the Army of occupation in the island of Korea. It was-I enjoyed it a little bit because the people were so nice and friendly there. But I wasn’t there long.
[296]
I got out of the Army. I was only in Korea about six weeks and then discharged with some other guys. You know, you got-you get so many points to get discharged. You get points for your time in the service, and your time overseas, and your rank, and anything you were able to accomplish that helped in the activity and the action. So, when your points came out-I forget what you had to have to get discharged but I got there about six weeks in Korea and I remember coming home, on a ship of course, and _[306]_ I remember stopping in Hawaii again. Several days we stopped in Hawaii and I remembered having been there earlier and that was kind of fun, too, to stop there and take a look around again. And that was the end of it for me.
[310]
So my contact with the enemy was just in New Guinea and the Philippine Islands. And before that, why, it was all training in Ft. Leonard Wood, San Luis Obispo, and-we were also, not in Phoenix, but in a small town close to Phoenix. It was also-we went to San Luis Obispo and we were-that was desert training, too, but we never had to battle in the desert because the war ended over there before we got called.
[321]
So we got called in the jungles and it was bad because it was a heck of a place to live, in the jungle. You know, you just couldn’t go anywhere but you’d get lost, and the fighting was terrible because you couldn’t tell where the enemy was and they couldn’t tell where we were. But you’d keep together in a battle and the results were always horrendous. War is war and-but it was _[331]_+ was just those two places, New Guinea and the Philippines, just the one island, Luzon.
[334]
And I remember we were there cause we went right through Manila in the Philippines on the way to securing the island and you know there were other divisions too. I forget how many divisions made the invasion of Luzon but I remember our general having us together and telling us, “Men, I hate to share this with you but I’m afraid there’s going to be a lot of bloodshed in this invasion as we hit the beaches.” There was some bloodshed, but it wasn’t nearly as serious as we thought it would be because they did a heck of a job in the Navy and the Air Corps. The Navy bombing from ships, bombing the beach areas, and the Air Corps bombing from above, and it really limited Japanese activity. And it helped our whole (?world?) division and our invasion a whole lot. But it was a-war is a terrible thing, I’ll tell you. Of course, it could be even worse now with all the weapons in the field.
MR: Were you awarded any medals or citations?
[353]
RH: Bronze Star.
MR: How did you-how did you get it?
RH: How’d I get it?
MR: Yes.
RH: Well, just from performing my job. I came to be a division personnel director, head of the personnel division, and the officer I had to report to was a general lieutenant colonel and he recommended me for the Star.
[BRIEF PAUSE FOR TAPE CHECK]
MR: During your life in the military how did you stay in touch with your family?
[365]
RH: Well, by letter, mostly. I’d write to them and they’d write to me. You know, everybody’s parents and family members would write to them and inform them of what’s going on at home and we’d do the same-tell them what’s going on with us.
MR: A lot of people have said the Japanese were a lot more difficult fighters than the Germans or Italians. Do you think this is true?
[373]
RH: Well, I don’t know. I would think the Germans would be pretty hectic too. They were real fighters as I understood. The Japanese, though, you had to be concerned because they didn’t mind-I don’t know if that’s the proper word or not-giving their lives up. They weren’t concerned about their lives. They apparently thought highly of their country and they did anything the country wanted them to do and that meant the people that were in charge of them-I’ll call them generals, I don’t know what they were called-but the Japanese, they did whatever they were asked and told to do. They did it pretty darn well. It made it difficult for the United States to get the job done. They didn’t surrender much at all. They’d kill themselves and some of them just gave themselves up but most of them didn’t like doing that. They’d fight it out until they defeated the people that were fighting them or they lost their lives.
MR: During the Army, what was the food like or how, when would you eat or what was the food like?
[394]
RH: Food? I don’t remember too much other than it wasn’t bad and it wasn’t great. You know, when you’re in battle everything’s cold but the United States made certain that there was food available for us, you know. You get over there and someway, somehow-and we had men in charge of preparation of the food that knew what they were doing, most of ‘em. They were experienced and so the food was really, as I remember, better than I expected it would be, particularly when we were sent overseas.
MR: Did you ever feel a lot of pressure or stress or
[407]
RH: Yes, oh yes.
MR: When would you feel this way? What are some stories that you have about it?
[410]
RH: Well, when you were in action mostly, when you were in action with the enemy. Although we were always at division headquarters so we were always in the background. We rarely would see any enemies. I remember that happened in New Guinea. I don’t remember ever seeing an enemy except when we made the invasion, when we hit the beach there and I saw some Japanese. They were in the jungle, right on the edge of the jungle and the beach, and they were firing at us.
[420]
But the food was...I would say it was better than I would have thought it would be.
LR: I don’t know if I’m allowed to participate.
MR: Oh, sure.
LR: but I have to ask-you are obviously a religious man. Did that help with the stress and
[426]
RH: Helped, helped me greatly.
LR: The stress of life and death?
RH: Yes, helped me greatly.
LR: And, and did the Army provide spiritual support?
RH: Do what?
MR: Did they have chaplains or did they
LR: Have chaplains?
[431]
RH: Oh, we had chaplains, yes, we had chaplains. We had several in our division and we had one that spent lots of time with us in division headquarters and, you know, the general of the whole division, that’s where he was, in division headquarters, and the chaplain would touch base with him to see what was going on and what the general needed and where he wanted him to be. Whether he wanted him to be in one of the infantry regiments right now that’s having a lot of problems, they need you-or they want a field artillery battalion. Whatever the general of the whole division, whatever he would want, the chaplain would do. The chaplain took _[443]_ from the general.
MR: How did people there entertain themselves? Did they play baseball or
[446]
RH: Well, yes, they did that, you know, when there wasn’t action going on. Of course, once we got into action like New Guinea and the Philippines there wasn’t much. But before that, training, and there was a lot. Yes, we had places where we would play softball and hardball too-mostly softball. And they tried to keep us active physically and playing sports and things like that whenever we could. But once we got in action, that’s out. But then, you know, if you’re in action for, I don’t know how long we were, but certain places, after you had defeated the Japanese in that particular area, you had some time off to play games and things. Whatever you wanted to do.
MR: When you were on leave in basic training or when you were training for jungle or desert warfare what did you do? Did you just hang out with your friends or
[468]
RH: Well, on leave, of course, when you’re in the United States, why you’d always go home when you’re on leave. I didn’t know what you could do there.
[472]
But if you’re not on leave, yes, we played a lot of different games. We just-whatever you could do. We had nets available to us to set up volleyball, nets you know, and we played volleyball and I don’t remember ever playing softball or anything cause we didn’t have enough space to-particularly in New Guinea I know we didn’t. But we didn���t play any softball in the Philippines and I don’t remember playing softball or hardball. I know we had, a few of us had, I didn’t have any, golf clubs but some of the guys did and they didn’t hit the ball but they just swung the clubs, you know, a little bit, keep your swing loose. We did play baseball but we didn’t hit the ball far, you know, just mostly short bunting almost. As I recall, we did a lot of swimming when we were near the ocean-spent a lot of time in the ocean.
[498]
Let’s see-someplace they’d get us movies, too, to show. Yes. I can’t remember whether that was _[500]_ or Philippines or _[501]_. I forget. Mostly in the Philippines as I remember. That was always fun.
MR: When you were in the service did anybody play pranks on each other or
RH: Anybody what?
MR: Play pranks on each other or
RH: Oh, pranks?
MR: Were there any things that you found funny that happened?
[508]
RH: I don’t remember that, Matt. There was a lot of kidding around with each other. Of course, there were some guys that didn’t like one another. You know, something happened maybe in the training or in action and one felt like he was let down or then there was some difficulty between Army members and sometimes the officers had to get involved to straighten it out. But that wasn’t any big deal, as I remember. It happened but it wasn’t serious.
MR: What did you think of your officers? Did you think they were good leaders or
RH: Officers?
MR: Yes, or some of your fellow soldiers.
[524]
RH: Thought they were very good for the most part. There were several that made things a little difficult for some of us and they’d take exception to it and in my camp you couldn’t do anything about it. You do what they told you to do whether you like it or not.
MR: Well,
LR: Check that tape, Matt.
MR: Oh, sure
[MR CHECKS DURATION OF TAPE]
[Comment “Well, I think that’s important” part of non-interview conversation carried on during tape check]
MR: Obviously present day there are a lot of people who question our soldiers’ belief in the cause of the [Iraq] War. How did you or some of your friends feel during the War about the mission? Did you think that it was important to protect liberty in America or were you against it? Just how did you feel about the cause of the War?
[543]
RH: Well, we felt it was very important to our country after Pearl Harbor. That shook us up and the guys that I got to know—well in the armed services and, I would assume, everybody-as far as I can tell-when we were told. And we were all very upset and we thought we were doing what we should be doing-had to do to defend our country and to move forward as a country and not give in to the Japanese-no way. We’d do whatever we had to do to defeat the Japanese and the sooner the better. That’s the way we felt.
LR: You felt that you had the support of the public? Families, friends, everybody at home-there was never a question?
[561]
RH: Never did they say, “Ray, that’s terrible. You shouldn’t have to be doing this.” No. My mother and dad were very supportive.
MR: I just have a few more questions. Do you recall the day that your service ended? Obviously you were in Korea but were you happy that you were going home?
[568]
RH: Sure was, sure was. My wife and I had become engaged before I left for the service. We decided not to be married until I came home but we decided to be engaged before. I was mighty anxious to be reunited with her and mighty anxious to be reunited with my mom and dad, my sister, my grandmothers. I never knew my grandfathers. Both were dead before I was born but my grandmothers both lived _[Into their]_ nineties anyway.
[583]
But, yes, I think everybody I knew in the service thought we were doing exactly the right thing and we were mostly pleased with those in charge of not only us but the whole effort to defeat the Japanese.
MR: What did you do in the days and weeks that followed after you got home? Obviously you were engaged. Did you get married rather quickly?
[596]
RH: Got married-let’s see-discharged in December of 1945 and got married two months later in February of 1946, and I must say I had a wonderful wife and she was a wonderful mother and we had a great marriage. We would have been married 59 years in the, let’s see, the 12th of February and my wife died on the 5th [of December, 2005]. _____.... (6 seconds).
[613] END OF SIDE ONE, BEGIN SIDE TWO
SIDE TWO
[614]
RH: [We met] in the fifth grade. We were in the same class at Pleasant Ridge Elementary School-fifth grade, sixth, seventh, and eighth . We went to high school at the same high school but I think we were in one or two classes together but studying the same thing.
MR: Did you develop any close friendships while you were serving or
[618]
RH: I developed close friendships.
MR: with anyone during your service?
RH: Oh, yes. I still, well, I haven’t been writing to them-we haven’t written much lately. Of course, many of them have died-my friends that we were in touch, you know, for years. But I still write one guy-we try to keep in touch-Jack Pistor, lives up Michigan and he spends his winter in Florida, has for years. I haven’t seen him for a long time and we don’t talk on the phone much like we used to but we still write each other occasionally but not as much as we used to. But he’s the only one now that-when first out of the service we kept in touch with quite a few of your friends but many of them have died-are dead now.
MR: What did you do as a career when you got back home?
RH: What’d I do about Korea?
MR: No, what did you do as a career?
[630]
RH: Oh, as a career. Well, before I went in the service I was working for the Jones & Laughlin Steele Corporation.
[631]
When I was in high school and I was a senior, the principal called me one day and said he wanted to see me. “Uh-oh, did I do something wrong?” But when I went in he said, “There’s a company called Jones & Laughlin Steele Corporation that has contacted us and they want me to recommend several young men that they can interview because they’d like to employ one or maybe two high school seniors who plan to go to college.” And the principal asked me, “Are you planning to go to college?” I said, “Well, I think that’s in order but I don’t know how my dad and my family can afford it. I don’t know how they can do it.” And he said, “Well, there will be some way you can get around that.” He said, “What college would you go to?” I said, “Well, the University of Cincinnati.” He said, “That’s a good one. That’s alright.” So, I didn’t do it and what I did do was tell Jones & Laughlin Steele when they came over that I was one of five seniors that he set up to be interviewed by them. And I think the reason I got the job was that I was a-have you ever heard of the Order of DeMolay?
MR: No, I haven’t.
[648]
RH: Haven’t. It’s a Masonic thing. It’s attached to Masonic masons and my uncle was a strong mason, this fella right up here, and he had suggested I join the Order of DeMolay, which I did, and it was a great organization and I got to be a Master Councilor of the Cincinnati Chapter-did that for a year, but it did a lot for me. It really was promoting your family, especially your parents-what they meant to you and what you ought to mean to them and your love for one another and they concentrated on that and it really had a good affect on me. The Order of DeMolay is still in existence and I’m still-not active but they don’t have too much going on for the older people but when they do I try to _[659]_+ with them. _[660]_+ and I got the job, I think, because the principal of the high school, Withrow High School in Cincinnati, Ohio, he was a very strong mason and he knew all about DeMolay so it helped me get the job at Jones & Laughlin and I was with them for over forty years.
[666]
I spent my whole career with Jones & Laughlin Steele Corporation. I started out as like an office boy and got promoted up the line and I was made Manager of the Cincinnati-well, what they did first was they-after I came back from my service in World War II and reported back to work-see I started working for them right out of high school and then I enlisted in the Army and I was there in the Army almost forty, four years-it was forty months really, so I was short by eight months, about three and a half I guess. But when I-right after I got out of the-I graduated from high school, was when Jones Laughlin Steele asked me to come to work for them and I was just a clerk working on the sales desk taking orders over the telephone. And I did that-I was doing that when I enlisted in the Army.
[678]
And then when I came back I went there to go back to work. They said, “Wonderful, we’re going to have you-we’re going to transfer you immediately to Louisville, Kentucky as an outside salesman. You’re going to be traveling Louisville, Kentucky and eastern Tennessee and western Kentucky and we’ll be shipping to that territory from our Cincinnati plant.” And so I worked for them for I forget how many years but I was-
[687]
they transferred me to Louisville, Kentucky, and I moved to Louisville, Kentucky, and was a salesman for that territory I told you about there and that worked pretty well and while I was in Louisville they were shipping armored steel into my territory out of Cincinnati and then they decided, when I was in Louisville, to open a plant in Louisville. And what they did was they just leased a plant that had been built for Reynolds Metals Company who makes aluminum. And they were selling aluminum through this plant, making aluminum, and making parts for different war efforts-whatever was needed in the war efforts in aluminum. And so they vacated the plant as soon as the war was over and it was empty and so our company leased that plant in Louisville, Kentucky, and I was the salesman there so I was at the right place at the right time and they made me the manager of that plant. Then, they leased it for five years and then in five years they decided that we were doing pretty well and they decided to build their own plant because they could build it to their definite specifications and it would be more economical and more productive because it would be made to accommodate what we needed to have, needed to do, and needed to produce. So they did-they built their own plant in Louisville, Kentucky, and it was much larger than the one we were leasing and they just let me be the manager there too.
[708]
And then they bought this company here in Indianapolis during the time I was serving there called W. J. Holiday Company and it was much bigger than our plant that we had in Louisville. We had sixty employees when I was the manager of the plant in Louisville, but up here in Holiday they had 250 employees— Much bigger plant doing the same thing and they transferred me up here as the general manager. And I stayed here about twelve years and I retired-it was time I retired. And that’s what happened there. I finished my career here in Indianapolis and I didn’t work to prime. I retired when I was still pretty young. I wasn’t too much over fifty.
MR: In general, was it difficult for returning veterans to get employment?
RH: What’s that?
MR: Was it difficult for veterans to get jobs and to become employed once they returned?
[723]
RH: Well, it certainly wasn’t for me. As far as I know, I think they did a-companies and corporations and everything-they looked forward to putting us to work. Of course, see, I went back with the same company I worked for before I went in. Most guys, most soldiers or sailors did.
MR: This is my last question.
[BRIEF BREAK IN INTERVIEW FOR CLARIFICATION PURPOSES]
MR: Last question. Given all your wisdom and experience, if you could spend ten minutes with President Bush or today’s Congress what would you tell them in regard to the war [in Iraq] and dealing with terrorism today?
RH: What would I tell them in regard to a war?
MR: In regard to the war on terrorism?
[735]
RH: War, oh, on the war on terrorism? What would I tell them? Well, terrorism really concerns me and worries me. I would tell them to be as aggressive as they can be.
MR: Okay.
RH: To do whatever they know has to be done to defeat terrorism. I don’t know what I would recommend they do. I wouldn’t recommend-I would recommend those who are in charge and know what has to be done to defeat terrorism. I would support that 100%.
MR: Alright. Well, thank you for spending your time and on my behalf, on behalf of the school, and the Library of Congress I thank you sincerely.
RH: You’re surely welcome, Matt. I think it’s terrific of you to be doing this and I wish you well. I congratulate you. I wish you have a great life ahead of you. I’m sure you will.
MR: Thank you.
RH: I’m sure you will. I can tell you’re intelligent and I know that you’re conscientious and I know that you’ll work hard to accomplish your objectives and I’m proud of you.
MR: Thank you, Sir.
RH: You betcha.
[751] END OF INTERVIEW
