Lawton, Leonard Gadi oral history

              Dr. Leonard Gadi Lawton

[b. 01115/19]

Recorded on 11/10/2003


[Interview starts at 001 on counter.]

People who attended the interview:

John Scott III

John Scott IV

Dr. Leonard G. Lawton

Judy Schwein (Dr. Leonard Lawton's daughter)

John Scott IV: This is Saturday, November 1, 2003, and we are at the home of Dr. Leonard Lawton, and my name is John Scott. Leonard Lawton was born on January 15, 1919, and we are currently at his home at 7508 Central Avenue [Indianapolis, Indiana.] Is that right? John Scott III, my father, is attending this interview. Our first question is-

JSIV: Were you drafted or did you enlist for World War II?

LL: I enlisted in the Marine Corp- July the 21st, 1941. I had just graduated from Stetson University. And a friend of mine - we played football together at Stetson - decided we better get in the service because things were heating up and they were going to start drafting men. So we went to the recruiting office and there was a Marine Air dressed sharply, as they always are in their recruiting offices. And he convinced us that the Marine Corps was the thing to do. So Skeet Cobb and I enlisted together. They put us on a bus in Orlando [Florida] and sent us to Savanna, Georgia where we took our medical exams, and were sworn in. And they put us on a bus, and sent us to Parris Island, South Carolina for boot camp. Paris Island had not been used since World War I. The barracks were no good. They were filled with rats and things, so we were in tent city, and that's where we started all our basic training was in Parris Island, South Carolina. Summertime-hot as it could be.

[040]

JSIV: So, why did you join exactly?

LL: Well, it was just time to. The world was heating up. They were fighting in Europe, and, like I say, the draft was about to begin, and we just, we didn't want to be drafted, so we wanted to volunteer. I had had an uncle in the Marine Corps in World War I, and I had my older cousin who was in the Marine Corps at that time. He'd been in soon as he graduated from Florida University, and he was now a captain in the Marines. So we had some background.

JSM: Is that why you chose the Marines?

LL: Mm, hmmm.

[055]

JSIV: Why - could you tell me about your boot camp and training experience?

LL: Yes. [chuckles] When we got to boot camp; that bus pulled in and stopped at - here  was a big old salty corporal standing there and he says, "Get out, men and line up here!" We did. We were all scared to death. We didn't know anything about the Marines. And he said, "Men, give your hearts to the Lord 'cause your butts belong to the government."

JSIV, JSM, LL: [laughing]

LL: And that was, that was my introduction at Paris Island. So they -they marched us over to the barber shop where you know, they just take- take all your hair off. Then they took us over to -get some uniforms, and we got everything from socks right on up. I don't know. Don't even remember what we did with the civilian clothes we wore. Maybe we bailed them all. I don't even remember. Then took us over to the tent city, and broke us up into smaller units. I was under a Sergeant Collins, and PFC Spagnola. Those were the two men that were to take us through boot camp. First morning, they took us over to get supplies. They give you a bucket, and in there are rifle cleaning materials. Everything a gun needs: soap and brush and everything. You got your bucket. Your bucket cost you $11. You had to buy that. I don't know why we weren't supplied, but we weren't. We paid $11 for that bucket of materials. After one month we got paid, and our total pay was $20.80, minus $11, and that was the first month's pay. We were issued a rifle, and you had to memorize everything about your rifle. It was given a number. My number was 291039. And you had to inspect it and mark down any defects in it, because when you turned it in, after you left Parris Island, if there were any more marks or defects they'd charge you for that. So, we got all our equipment, and from there on out we just started marching, and learning how to march. First thing you have to learn when you march is how to stop. First thing they teach you is, "Halt!" And you can understand that you get a group of guys moving, you got to be able to stop them. So that's the first thing you learned is how to halt. Then we of course learned bayonet work, rifle shooting, and all of the basic things for about three months. It was just hot, hot, hot. [At] boot camp, you do learn a lot. You undergo lots of stress. What it begins to teach you is discipline. And this is what you need, because when somebody says do something in the Marine Corp, you do it instantaneously. There is no question. You learned to do it, so that when somebody says, "Jump," you ask, "How high?" on the way up. But that is good, because you need discipline. They inspect you carefully to be sure you stay clean. If you cannot stay clean in a situation where you have water and soap, you won't stay clean in the field where you have hardly anything to work with. So there's a reason for all the meanness you hear about in boot camp-a distinct reason. It proves how to be worthwhile later on.

JSIV: Yeah.

[121]

JSM: Did many men not make it or cut?

LL: Everybody made it there because this was, then the things were getting hot, and nobody was cut. They cut them now. What they would do if a guy wasn't learning, they'd just move him back to a platoon that was just starting. He'd start over. He stayed in boot camp until he learned it. Yeah. There was nothing out, nobody got away. Yes sir.

JSID: Being exposed to all those weapons, did they assign a particular weapon to you? Did they look to see what strengths you have?

LL: Just, just rifle and pistol. Those were the only two weapons we studied in boot camp. Later on, when I got to Officer's School, we studied all the weapons. Uh-huh, But at down there, just the rifle, basically. Very little about the pistol; mainly because officers carried pistols. Enlisted men carried rifles. Uh-huh,

JSIV: Did you know of anybody who used a BAR?

LL: Oh yes, but, like I say, I didn't, I didn't see the BAR 'til - 'til I was up in Quantico, Virginia.

[140]

JSID: Just letting you expand on that, from boot camp do you go •.• go to Officer's School, or how's the transition to that?

LL: No. Alright. When- when boot camp ended, they sent us to Quantico, Virginia, which is a big Marine base. I wasn't assigned to Officer's School, and after I got to Quantico, then they started looking through people, and they said, "Okay, you have a college education, so you would go to Officer's School." Now that's how, that's how it was. I didn't know anything about being an officer. And it turns out you go first to what they call "Candidate's Class." That's where it's another boot camp, if you want to know the truth about it. But here they can weed you out. If they don't think you're officer material in Candidate's Class, then they weed you out. Then if you graduate from Candidate's Class, you get your gold bar for Second Lieutenant, and then you go to Officer's school. Now that's how that works. Our Candidate's Class was the fourth Candidate's Class. They hadn't had very many before us. And then they had a Candidate's Class in Philadelphia somewhere too, so there were two or three Candidate's Classes, and we were the Seventh Reserve Officer's Class. We were in pretty early. My serial number was 08801, and that's a very low number-a very low number.

JSIII: How long was that school?

LL: Well, Candidate's Class was three months-just like boot camp, because some of the boys had signed up in college and they were just, that was their first assignment. They didn't, not everybody went through boot camp. So I had a distinct advantage when I was in Candidate's Class. I'd done all that before. So, I didn't have any trouble. While we were in Candidate's Class, Pearl Harbor occurred. And boy, training stepped up then. We went from five in the morning 'til midnight every day-Just going as fast as we could right on into Officer's School.

[173]

JSID: How did the men feel? Were they excited? Were they angry? Were they scared at all?

LL: When-when Pearl Harbor?

JSID: Yeah.

LL: We didn't know what to feel, you know? Everybody was anxious because we knew we were going to war then. We didn't know before when we would, but yeah that was-that was scary because here we were, six months at most out of civilian life, and we were going to lead men into combat. Now that's a little scary 'cause their lives depend on what we know, and we didn't know anything. And the instructors that we had, even as soon as we got our gold bars and went to Officer's School, no instructor had been in combat. One or two of the older men had been in World War I, but they were, this was, we knew this was a different war. So we didn't, you know, people teaching us combat didn't know any more about it than we did. When we graduated from Officer's School in March, we were immediately sent to combat units. A group of the men and myself were sent to New River, North Carolina. It's now Camp Lejeune, and it's a big, beautiful base. When we were there it was pine trees, rattle snakes, and tents-a few Quonset huts. It was nothing. And when we got there, they took three or four of us in a Jeep, and dumped us off in a spot and they said, "You're here in F Company. Go report to Captain Skinner." So we walked up there and he says, "Welcome to F25 1MARDIV FMF." [chuckles] What's that? [chuckles] He says its F Company, 2nd Battalion, 5th Regiment, 1st Marine Division Fleet Marine Force. Fleet Marine Force is that section of Marines that learned amphibious landing ship to shore. So that's, that's where we were. And the first day he says, "Now we got a bunch of raw recruits here just out of boot camp. You got to teach them things. You need to teach them rubber boat landings in case we have to land behind enemy lines." We'll paddle ashore in rubber boats, spy, and get out. [He] says, "Teach them rubber boat landing. You teach them how to use those cargo nets off of the ship down to a landing craft, and that's our first month's assignment." I had never seen a cargo net. I'd never seen a rubber boat. I was green as the recruits I was with.

[215]

JSM:At that point, did you, were you told, or did you have a feeling that you would be going to the Pacific or what?

LL: We didn't know.

JSIII: At what point did-?

LL: Alright.

JSM:- was it determined? How was it determined that you were assigned to go to Europe, which had been going on for two years, or the Pacific?

LL: We - the - the Marine Corp was assigned to the Pacific theatre. There were never Marines in Europe at that time.

JSM: At any time?

LL: No, no. We didn't know that for a while. We - we didn't really know where we were going until well - in May I guess it was - they said, you know, here we are, March, I guess it was April. March and April. We were in North Carolina there trying to learn something and train troops and get used to them. And we got the word, "You're leaving for Norfolk. You're gonna go board a ship off in Virginia in May." So we - we got on a train in New River and rode up to Norfolk, Virginia Got aboard ship. We were aboard ship before we knew where we were going. Then they - then we found out we're going to go through the Panama Canal and over to New Zealand. So that's the first time we knew that. And - it was - we were aboard a - a ship that had been - a Liberty. I mean a luxury ship, and they had just stripped it you know for troops. Bunks were put up in the swimming pool down below and every place. We were just hung all over the walls.

JSID: A lot of men on that ship.

LL: Uh-huh. Well, I don't know how many Navy, but approximately 5,000 Navy and about 10,000 Marines. That's about what it amounted to there.

[239]

JSIV: Wow.

LL: And we were - we went down the East Coast, and - we didn't have any warships with us. We never had an escort anywhere.

JSIII: Even when you got into the Pacific?

LL: No sir. But we got through the Panama Canal - a few airplanes flew with us for about a hundred miles or so, then they went back, and we were alone. Because of Pearl Harbor, Midway ', and Coral Sea6 - those naval battles - the Navy was tied up. So here we were about 15,000 men floating across the Pacific with nothing but an old luxury ship. No guns, no nothing.

JSIV: Were you nervous about enemy ships or planes or anything coming in at any time?

LL: Well, we didn't - sure [chuckles] we were nervous about it.

JSIV: Yeah.

LL: Uh-huh. They - they boxed the compass. They would sail west, then maybe south, then maybe even east again. Just a zigzag course across the Pacific, hoping that nobody would see us, or somebody did, they wouldn't be able to plot, you know, rate times time equals distance. They'll be here at a certain time. So we avoided that. We ran into a storm the way over, and I cannot imagine how the wind and the waves can be that big. "Eighty feet tall," they tell me. I didn't measure them for sure. But the rear end of that ship would be kicked out of the water, and you hear that big screw in the back - that propeller - would whip around and they shake that whole ship. I thought the bolts would fall apart. And then back down in the water it went. That big screw flipping around again. That was the most [chuckles] disastrous feeling you had, you know. You think you couldn't see how that ship could hold together anymore. But it did.

JSID: Was- was it most likely that you'd be encountered by a submarine?

LL: We were afraid of submarines, yes. Part of our division was in Samoa' and they could not join us in New Zealand because of the submarines. They were just filled in that area Yeah. So they didn't join us until after the Battle of the (Bloody) Ridge. Mm, hmmm. We were two-thirds of a - of a division heading out to New Zealand. And we didn't know where we were going, you know, we didn't even know New Zealand 'til we were in the Pacific out there.

JSIII: So you went to New Zealand first - 

LL: Mm, hmmm.

JSIII: - before the Marine Corps started their assignment. [Inaudible]

LL: We were supposed to go to New Zealand, and be there for six months was the plan. And the Seventh Regiment that was in Samoa would join us and - and we didn't have any place to fight. That wasn't assigned. We just were going to go to New Zealand and become a Division and get ready to go over wherever they needed us. Now that was the plan as far as anybody knew. Then we'd only been in New Zealand just - just six months we were there about less than six weeks, and, Martin Clements - the man I showed you in that picture - who had been on - in the Solomons, took Vouza and his gang and a radio, and they went up high in the jungle on the volcano - or part of it - and hid there and watched what the enemy did, and then would by that radio send messages down to Australia where the - Australians were in charge of things for a - for a while. So, we got the message, from Clements, that the air strip was being built in a hurry, and that if we didn't come, they were gonna have an air strip there within easy striking distance in New Zealand, Australia, and everything else. So we immediately were told [to] prepare for combat on Guadalcanal. That's the first time we'd ever heard the name of that island. It's about 600 miles east of New Guinea, and maybe, I don't know, 1200 miles north of - away from Australia - or east of Australia.

[300]

JSIII: Is there a meaning behind the name "Guadalcanal"?

LL: The Solomon Islands were discovered by a Spanish explorer in the 1500s, and all the names there have something to do with his hometown, or homeland. Guadalcanal was the village where he had lived in Spain. There's Florida Island, Saint Isabel Island, and a lot of Spanish names because he was the guy. He named them the "Solomon Islands" because he thought he'd find gold there, and King Solomon had more gold than anybody in history, so that's how they got their name. Uh-huh.

[309]

JSIV: Do you remember arriving and what it was like?

LL: Oh yeah, sure. We went to Fiji Islands on the way up and stopped for a little practice landing. We had never landed. So we had a practice landing in the Fiji Islands. I guess I ought to tell you this because it's important with the timing that I'll tell you later. In order to land - you saw us getting off the ship there into those little wooden craft. We were going to land in three waves. The third wave unloads first, and those boats go out away from - further out into the ocean, and they break up into about groups of maybe ten little boats and they circle around. And they're circling around out there - maybe a hundred boats altogether there. Alright. Then the second wave unloads and they go out there and they circle around. Then the first wave unloads, and they get in a circle, and so when everybody's all ready to go, then a flare is fired off or whatever signal they want, and the first wave hits to shore. Then after a half an hour, the second wave. Then third wave, like that. That's the way you land. Well it takes a long time to do that; that's the point of - of my telling you that story, because then - then we had that practice landing. Loaded again and took off for the Solomon Islands. Several things I'll tell you we didn't know 'til the war was over, but we know them now and can tell you how it happened because there were three or four miracles that ever got us to shore. Our flotilla passed by the southwest comer of Guadalcanal - Cape Esperance'< it's called - and the Japanese had a lookout there of course - security. [coughs] He saw us coming. We were not where we were going yet, but it would have taken all the time to get these boats out and going around. He sent a message to Rabaul, which was 600 miles north of Guadalcanal turn, on the tip end of New Britain Island. And there they had Navy, they had aircraft, they had troops. Rabaul was a stronghold for the urn, enemy. He sent a message to them. It would have taken them an hour to fly down, and we would've been in the water in wooden boats. The message never got through - or we would have never been ashore.

JSIII: Wow.

LL: We landed August the seventh. Their plans called for their aircraft to have been on the new strip 15 on August the seventh. If they had had their airplanes right there [whistles] look out, we'd have never gotten to shore. But, the crews were two days late in getting the strip ready, or they'd have been there. They had 'til - 

JSID: You didn't know that.

LL: No. We didn't know that. Just like I say, we didn't know these things until after the war. Up on the side of one of those big ol' mountains, they had two huge cannons. They could've covered all that bay out there. They were never fired once. There's three reasons why we should never have gotten to shore, and they never happened. Isn't that amazing?

JSIV: Yeah.

JSID: Woah.

LL: Isn't that amazing. Well, so we got there, unloaded the morning the seventh. H-Hour was eight o'clock in the morning. That's when we planned to land. So we - we were unloading and whatnot and getting ready while it was still dark, and then we sent [the] First Regiment'", and part of the Fifth Regimentl7 to Guadalcanal. The Navy, laying off shore, and we had an aircraft carrier with us. They bombed Guadalcanal, and, and shot shells in there, and the boys went ashore, and there was nobody there except for construction crews. There was not a post. The boys just walked ashore and walked over and took the - took the air strip. The Raider Battalion, the Parachute Battalion, and the Second Battalion Fifth - that I was with -landed on Tulagil, which was the capital of the Solomon Islands. And low and behold, that's where their troops were. So we landed under fire, and we fought, took about three days of fighting, but the way it happened - we landed under fire, and then it stopped. I thought, "What's going on here? Do you win a war in two hours?" But - so we took up positions. They walked up the top of the hill 
and took the government house up there where the headquarters had been, and we spread out over the whole island. A mile long, and a half mile wide. Tiny little thing. And two smaller islands Gavutu and Tanambogo, They really - those three islands lay in the curve of Florida Island, and the water between the two was a little gulf that was good for supplies, for repairs, for all sorts of things. So we took - we landed on those three islands. And like I say, we took them. But, what happened is that the enemy force had moved into caves. These were honeycombed with caves. At night, midnight, they came out. The Japanese never attacked in daylight. Never. They are night-fighters. They never - the only time they fight in the day is if we attack them. That's, that's just how that goes. So - 

JSM: Is it a tactic of theirs or is there something cultural or, or?

LL: That's a tactic of theirs. I, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if they did it, you know, in China or not. I don't know, but [chuckles] on Guadalcanal and Tulagi and Tanambogo - nighttime. They hid in caves, yeah, they did. So we fought hard the first night, then we realized what was happening to us when daylight came - oh, fighting stopped. So that's when we tried to figure out how to clean out those caves. I think I told you before about the grenades. The one - okay. The one guy - see we didn't have anything. Our equipment was terrible. We, we landed, our rifles were 1903 Springfield single-shot bolt-action rifles. We had a few machine guns. We didn't have any tanks. We didn't have any flamethrowers. We didn't have anything to clean out a cave with.

[395]

JSM: Now, at this point, you were in the serv- [?]. [Inaudible.]

LL: Yes. I was a Second Lieutenant.

JSIII: Second Lieutenant.

LL: Charge of a platoon.

JSM: And that means, as a Second Lieutenant, you're there fighting too, you're not - 

LL: Oh, yes.

JSM: Okay.

LL: Oh, yeah. Yeah. When you go ashore, you're all one.

JSM: And basically, your assignment was to engage the enemy?

LL: Yeah.

JSM Thank you.

LL: Yeah.

[398]

JSM: That's nice.

LL: That's all it was. That's all it was - and so, the night of the - the morning of the eighth - day after we landed, one guy figured, "Well, maybe I can through a hand grenade in there (one of these caves.)" They weren't caves that went straight down you know, into the side and whatnot and they dug them out - so forth and a little bit. So he found a - a place where he could - you know, throw a grenade and then get flat so he'd be okay, you know. They used to hide. That's the way you do when you throw a grenade, 'cause it doesn't care if it blows you up or not. So he threw a grenade into one of these caves, and that grenade came back out; exploded close to where he was. The grenade had a seven second timer. Grenade has a handle on it, held on by a cauter pin. You pull the cauter pin, and as long as you hold the handle, you're safe. The minute you throw it that handle flies off and there's seven seconds, and it explodes. Well seven seconds is quite a time. Thousand one, two, three, four - So, they threw it back out. So, he pulled the pin, let the handle fly; held a live grenade for three seconds or four seconds and threw it in. [laughs] That's how we cleared out caves down in Tulagi.

JSID: Technology was good enough that it was always seven seconds?

LL: Yup. Oh yes. Yeah. Yeah. Pretty well timed. So, if they mistimed it and you held if for four seconds, then [chuckles] you'd be gone. But at any rate, that's - that's the way we cleaned out the caves. Well the next night, there were still some that came out. We still had heavy fighting the night of the eighth. But, it didn't last long 'cause we had superiority, you know; they just had a few. It really wasn't that bad of fighting but, then, came midnight, we were along the side of the hill of Tulagi. Here the Japanese fleet came in. Sneaked in, undetected. Sank or drove off all our ships. The boys on Guadalcanal had been able to unload some supplies. Not all by any means. And when we woke up on the morning of the ninth - we had to wake up; we didn't sleep. The morning of the ninth, when daylight came, our navy was gone. We were there, with what few supplies well, we had. Like I say, the fighting ended in a couple of days, 'cause they were just in caves and we outnumbered them. There were four or five hundred troops on the, on Tulagi - another couple hundred on the other two little islands there. But at any rate, it was fierce fighting and we were - they were done.

[434]

JSID: This is the first offensive by the United States?

LL: The very first offensive of World War II. The first rifle shot fired by an American in World War II was on Tulagi. I heard it. I didn't fire it, and I don't know who did. [chuckles] But that was - this was the very first offensive action of World War II anywhere. Yes.

[439]

JSIV: Can you describe any particular battles with the enemy?

LL: Oh - okay. Alright. Let me get you over to Guadalcanal. After - 

JSID: How far is Tulagi from Guadalcanal?

LL: Twenty miles. But you see, from there on, the Japanese owned the sea. We had no aircraft; they owned the air - and they could land troops whenever they wanted to. So they owned the land, sea, and air. We were just there. Well, the Japanese sent their first counter-attack to the big island where the airstrip was. They didn't care about Tulagi anymore. And there they had the Battle of the Tenaru. First battle of the Tenaru - a little river there. And they . . . this is where Vouza went out and found out where they had landed and where they were going to hit. So our boys were ready for them at the Tenaru, and that night they just slaughtered - slaughtered that whole battalion. They just sent one battalion. It was '" they - later found out it was their elite battalion that had been through China and Indonesia down in there and had never lost a battle. Well they lost everything, and they found the commander - in the jungle - He had committed hari-kari after that battle. Well, then they said, "Okay we gotta get all our troops over here on Guadalcanal. It's where the fighting's going to be." So the Japanese controlled the - the sea. They sent three destroyers - the smallest and fastest things we had - and they picked out the darkest night that they could, and sent them to that little water between Tulagi and Florida, where we could load on.

[landing on Guadalcanal]

We just got on there and loaded on those things as fast as we could, and they crept across that water as fast as they could go and we jumped off and got ashore. That darn night. So that's how we go - to Guadalcanal from Tulagi. I suppose I learned one of my greatest lessons in my life that night. It was dark. We had just landed helter-skelter. Our battalion was mixed up with paratroopers and raiders and everything else - and it was black. And I was standing there on the beach with four or five of the men and said, "My God. We got jumped off it." And here comes a - a guy and he shines a little light on his collar and it's a full colonel-and he's the regimental commander. And he said, "Who's in charge of this group?" I said, "I am. I'm dead right about that," and so on. And he said, "What did you do?" I said, ''Nothing. We're just standing here. We don't know what to do." "Well" - he said in a loud tone of voice, "Any idiot can do nothing. I expect more than that from a Marine officer." I guarantee you, that night [chuckles] I was an officer from that moment on. I - I made decisions. I did something. Yea, that's when I became a Marine, if you want to know the truth about it. That very night.

[first morning on shore & Japanese landing]

Well, we - daylight came and we did get organized and - did - did a lot of patrolling because the enemy kept landing troops at night - around us. They could've landed in daytime. In fact, they were still landing in the morning. We could look down a few miles and see them unloading. They chopped a trail all around our perimeter. Guadalcanal is eighty to ninety miles long; twenty miles wide. The Marines held - six miles. So they could land wherever they wanted. We didn't have any artillery that could reach them. We didn't have any airplanes. We didn't have any ships. So they just landed. Well they cut a path through that jungle called the "East-West Trail" - or we called it - so that they completely surrounded us with that trail. So we had to - send patrols out and find out where the trail was and where the enemy - might be. And many of the patrols were ambushed and we rescued each other from patrol. But then, with all that little information that we could gather, the boys in Intelligence - Division - Division Intelligence decided that they're coming down Bloody Ridge - 'cause it led from their trail right to the airstrip - and they said this is - this is where they're coming. So we lined up there to meet them. My battalion was in reserves. We were not on the original front line. Mostly - mostly raiders and paratroopers were there. I don't know where the rest of the Fifth Regiment was. I don't know. But our battalion was reserved for the whole outfit. Now, reserve is good and bad. You don't get the initial attack, but, where the attack is heaviest, and they're breaking through, that's where the reserve goes. So, like I say: it's good and bad.

[Japanese attack on the night of the 12th]

Well they did come down the night of the twelfth - I guess it was - and boy the fighting was - we could just hear it going like mad and we were - we were the only reserve there was for that home perimeter. Everybody else was on the line. So we knew we were just waiting to hit. Well they were - they were breaking through on the left- hand side of the ridge there a little bit where the jungle had begun. And it was almost morning - and General Vanderdrift - "Those fighter of ours you gotta get up there - soon as you can move." And we started up - there - there a funny geography on this island. There's flat plain - and that's of course where the airstrip is. All these islands are the same. Then there's a roll of hills that runs parallel to the coast. I don't know how that one got in there. And then all these ridges from the volcano, that lead up to that. Well, we got up behind that ridge - where we could - we had to cross the top of that, and work our way quickly up to the -where the fighting was. But as I say, it was almost dawn, and at dawn they quit fighting - which is a blessing. So - when we - when we got up here ready to go to reinforce - they were hit pretty hard. [A] man from E Company [and] a man from F Company - we lined up as far apart as my hands are (approx. 2’ [?] feet) - and somebody gave a signal, "You both run across the top of  that bridge - try to get cover in the jungle off the top of Bloody Ridge and move up."Well that's what we were doing. Well - came my time and a boy from E Company - I have no idea who he was - and they said, "Go," and we jumped up and ran. A shot rang out, and that boy fell with a bullet right his head. Man, we were as close as you and your dad (less than I foot). I crawled over to him and grabbed his arm but oh my, it was stiff. He was - he was gone. Rigor Mortis set in immediately. So I crawled up there and we got in position and then the next night of course they started again. So we had two nights - pretty heavy fighting here. By that time, we had used up almost all of our ammunition and what little food we had. The Navy came to supply us and the Wasp was lost, and Admiral Turner says, "It's too expensive - in ships and stuff to try to send you supplies. We're through with you." And like I say we - President Roosevelt changed that order - and I think probably because young Jimmy Roosevelt was part of the Marine group there. And at any rate, that order was reversed, and the Navy had had some successes, and the Seventh Regiment could then join us. And the Japanese had suffered heavy losses there. Like I say 2,500 or so were dead - and many wounded. Here again we find out from records and their photographs - they went back to the East-West Trail, tried to get back to where they started from, and they were - starving to death because they carry their own rations. They had no supply. When they used up their rations, they're done. [If] they were wounded, [if] they didn't have any food - more of them I expect died on the East-West Trail than we killed that night. They had - they had photographs of it. We captured - some film that showed - they were a motley crew. So we were hungry, but they were starving, and there is a difference. So we had a few other smaller pitch cattle.

[October & serving as company commander]

Then we went - come October - we planned to start going down to the Matanikau River - which is on the west side, and that's where we were all the time. Always on the west side of that six-mile perimeter. We - we decided we are going to have to go down there and ride them off. Well, we went down to the Matanikau. We got ready to cross the river. There was only one way across it at that point. Right at the mouth of the Matanikau is a sand bar that just nearly concludes that river. [coughs] There was a spillway - a natural one. This is all natural stuff. A natural spillway about oh fifteen or twenty feet across or maybe more than that I don't - you know but a small - small area of water that you could wade across. It would be about waist deep. And then there was about a three or four foot embankment there. You had to jump up on that embankment before you could - start down the coast. Paul Moore - was - the B Platoon there - and I said, "Okay Paul." By this time I was a company commander. I mean you know, casualties and all that stuff. So here I was, a clean, bean, second lieutenant - had three , four hundred men under my command. I said, "Paul, you take - you take your Boys-send four - five of them over there - get them up there - so they can set up a protective part for the rest of us to come." Well those boys got up there, and the minute they got on top the enemy opened fire. All five of those boys were wounded. It so happened that we found this out later: the same day we had planned to cross and wipe them out, they had planned to cross and wipe us out. We met at the Matanikau. Both sides had to retreat. But, Paul - went over there five times and brought a boy back every time. [whistles]

JSID: Wow.

LL: Oh man. Oh ho ho. Bullets - hitting the sand and hitting the water; Paul was never touched. All of those boys recovered. And that was - a tremendous act. Tremendous act. And - [later in October]

[559]

JSID: That's really special.

LL: Uh-huh, After the war, he went to Ministerial School and retired as the Episcopal Bishop of New York. Had a big church up there. Uh-huh. But at any rate. So, as I say, we all - both sides had to pull back; nobody could cross the Matanikau. Then later in October, just about where we are now, we said we were going again. So - [alarm clock chimes for about 10 seconds] - the - they were going to go across - that sand bar, but we - my - my company was up higher on the river, and that's where the engineers put that little floating bridge across. And we - crossed there into the jungle, and - we were to take the ridge - the ridge that ran parallel to the coast. We were to take that ridge, and move down it - protect the flank, that larger, main body that was going along the coast. Now, it's not a coast like Daytona Beach or Hawaii [chuckles], no. There's undergrowth all the way down to it. There's not an open area by any means. A few palm - a few - coconut palms, but most of  it's just rush - rough undergrowth. We moved along and finally the main body was held up. They couldn't move anymore, the enemy. They had to line their guns - and - they were standing - and the Colonel Walt - or he was Major Walt then - later became General Walt - he called on the little radio we had and he said, "Gadi, move down those hills - few hundred yards - see what you can find. If you can, cut down to the ocean, and cut off this outfit that's holding us up." "Okay." [chuckles] So, we did. We fortunately found a place that was maybe thirty or forty yards wide - that was fairly clear. I have no idea why it was clear. Maybe some shelling from the Navy had - had - knocked down some stuff. But it was fairly clear, and so, we went down there and we cut off that whole outfit. They didn't know we were there. And I knew that the enemy was on - further west, so that we were surrounded. We surrounded them, and they had us surrounded. So I divided the company into two groups. I said, "Stretch out, facing one west and one east, and we'll just kind of see how this unfolds," because I could not attack that outfit that was holding us up because our bullets would fly over and hit our own boys, and if they kept shooting, they'd hit us. So it was - kind of a peculiar situation. We'd been there - just a very few minutes, and go scattered out, and one of the boys says, "Come here."

[588]

[Not included on Side 1: - "Let me show you something. . . "]


Side Two

[Cut off by the beginning of Side 2: - He held up this handful of electrical wires.]

[590]

[Japanese communication wires]

LL: - electrical wires, he said, "what do you want me to do with that?" I thought for a minute - you know - they weren't ours. I knew the enemy had communications on both sides of us, so I said, "Cut them," and he did. Boy, it wasn't three minutes until the troubleshooters - you know - came along. They couldn't figure out what had happened to their system of communication. Well, our boys - you know - they were walking along with their heads down, looking at the wires. They came from both sides. Well, our boys - you know - shot them immediately and of course one or two of them bound to have gotten away, so they knew we were there. So then, we started getting activity from both sides coming at us. Those on - farther along to the west pulled up a small cannon - like our 37 mm cannon - a little cannon on wheels. They were blasting down what we call the "Beach Road." Road - But at any rate, they couldn't shoot at us through the jungle. They'd just hit trees, so all they could fire at was that down the road and then they'd send a few troops down there. They didn't know how many we had; we didn't know how many they had, and it was kind of, "I'm scared and you're glad of  it," - you know. That's the sort of situation we were in. But, still, in all we were getting peppered pretty good and getting some casualties . . . and . . . we . . . I was very apprehensive about that night, because they attack at night. And I thought, "Oh, my." We are not very strong as one company here facing two directions - But, all we got was a 
few men sneaking around trying to - trying to get through at night - really trying to find out. So, even though those 	those five or six that got into our area - there was some hand-to-hand combat there But - we were able to kill them. So in the - a night even though it was terrifying - wasn't that hard of a battle during the night.

[next day along "Beach Road"]

And then the next day I was kind of looking where that little cannon was and trying to figure out what the best communication with our outfit was, and I said - I told Walt - I said, "Get me some artillery fire where that thing is coming." Well he says, "You would have to be the forward observer." And I said, "I did not know where the battery is," you know - I don't know - how to call - but I said, "Have them fire a 
round to the base of Point C-[?], which is a geographical figure. Well, they fired a shell at us, and I said I couldn't see where it landed, and said, "Have them fire another one." They fired two or three, and I never could see where they landed. So the guy at the artillery, a small piece - a Howitzer - uh he said, "We can't waste shells that way not knowing where they are going." [laughs] I said, "You think they're being wasted?" [laughs] But at any rate, they didn't want to fire anymore, because there was poor communication and I couldn't tell if he was dropping it down 200 yards or it might be on us. So, they let it go. Well we were there that day and after I went down there and looked where the cabin was and I came back and one of my lieutenants, Julius Goldblatt, I said, "What's going on in your area. He says, "Well, just one or two came in this morning, but we took care of those." I said, "Okay I'm going to go over and - go back up here a little bit and see what Paul Moore is doing." And I walked along and I saw some leaves moving like that (wavering in the air like normal leaves), and there wasn't any breeze 
blowing. So I stopped. Here stepped out from behind the tree was the enemy. We were staring at each other face to face, about as close as that wall (18-20 feet). Both of us went for our firearms and I happened to go faster. That's the only man that I know that I killed face to face, but that's not a good feeling. You know, when you're shooting at 200-300 yards away, that's an impersonal war, but when you see somebody face to face, and you shoot them, that is different. That's different. I've often thought about that boy. His parents had no way of knowing where, when, or what happened, because we had them in a trap and nobody escaped from that trap. That's just not a good feeling. Not a good feeling.

[plans to push the Japanese into the ocean; Lawton shot]

[683]

JSM: Was it [snaps fingers] instantaneous, or did he suffer for a while?

LL: Yeah, yeah. We had no choice. No choice. It was he or I - that boy. But at any rate, that is something I dread and regret. Isn't that awful? You're in war to kill somebody but you do it and then you think, "I did wrong." That's just not good. But at any rate, they realized how we were going to run out of ammunition and how we needed help, so they sent another troop - another company. Maybe more. I don't know how many came. But at any rate, they came down the ridge and down to us to relieve us. So we went back up to the ridge to spend the night and lick our wounds and see what we had left. And we lost some boys, sure, down there. We no more had settled down until Walt calls again and he said - just like I said - "We can't shoot at each other." He says, "I want you to line your boys up (in what we called a "Skirmish Line") and want you to come down that hill and push them into the ocean." "Okay." So as soon as it was light enough to see, we spread out and started down that hill. Well, they were ready for us. About 8 o'clock we hadn't gotten very far. We were down on flat land, but that was about it. And they had some  machine guns and they nailed at us and we were losing people. And I saw Paul Moore go down. Right through the chest; all the way through. He went down like ton of brick. And I thought, "Boy I have to crawl over there and see if I can say goodbye." And there was a corps man there, you know, a navy boy who is trained to be a medic in the field, and he and I crawled on our bellies like a snake - Got over there where Paul was, and he says, "Paul's still alive. I think I - I think I can help him some." And he was putting compresses on him and doing whatever he was trained to do. And I saw another boy beginning to move in a position where he'd be in a position right where that gun had caught Paul - would catch him and I sort of half way raised up and I said, "Don't go there!" and a bullet came right across here and went through my left shoulder (on the body it looks like a 45 degree angle to the body). I don't know if it was a stray bullet or someone had me in their sights, but if I'd have been an inch closer to the ocean, I would never be telling this story. And I felt like somebody had just done that to me. And I dropped back down and the corps man said you have been shot. And I said, "Well, all I felt was ajar." It wasn't hurting at all. He says, "You've been shot," [laughs] because he could hear the bullet. I couldn't hear it. It went over his head, and when a bullet goes over your head it makes a crack - it breaks the sound barrier. So he knew a bullet had come across there when he saw me jerk and knew I had been hit. So I dropped down and he said, "I can't do anything for you, I am trying to keep Paul alive." And he says, "You're apparently not hurt too bad, and I said, "I guess that is right." So he gave me a little bit of sulfa he had He said, "Sprinkle that in there, and then get out of here." [chuckles] So, at that point - I did. I pulled back. Of course I couldn't do a thing there. And we had, and I don't know where it came from. I don't know how we got a 37 mm around that area and up to where we were. But there were have - two or three guys were trying to pull it, and it was through that underbrush and everything. And I went over and grabbed one of the wheels, and I said, "Let's get it up here." And so we pulled it up there, and I just about wrecked my right shoulder and both of my shoulders weren't worth a nickel. But we got it up there because I knew where they had to shoot, so I said, "All right boys, here is where we gotta shoot." Well we shot with that thing until we ran out of ammunition, but we quieted down their machine guns and things. Then we could all begin to move forward. And we moved forward and actually pushed them into the ocean. They jumped in the water and tried to swim or run through the water and to get further to the west where they knew they had reinforcements, but of course they ran into the boys that had relieved us, so none of them none of them got out of that. So, by that time it was about 12:30 or 1, and we hadn't we hadn't quite gotten the outfit and here comes Walt, battalion commander. He said - he looked at me and he says, "You're a mess. What are you doing here?" [laughs] I said, "I have no place to go." [chuckles] So he said, "Okay. They're evacuating some of the boys now. We've got a Jeep or two there and we are pulling them back to the hospital near the air strip." And he said, "Go get on one of those jeeps." Well there was just one Jeep left there when I got there, and it was loaded with guys on stretchers all bandaged up, you know, hanging allover that Jeep. The Jeep driver said, "I don't know what I am going to do with you. I don't have any place for you." I said, "How about I ride the spare tire." He says, "Okay." So I got on the spare tire, and we got back across - they had built a little bridge down by the sand strip there - and we got across the Matanikau - got further back into our territory and here were some of the boys that I knew. I said, "Hi, guys." And they said, "You big bum! We heard you were shot, and we were worried about you and you act like you are in a parade."

LL, JSID, JSIV: [laughs]

LL: So I wasn't hurt bad. I was not hurt bad. Sure my shoulder was getting stiff and this one (right shoulder) was hurting, but I was all right. So when I go to the Hospital - tent hospital area, the guy in charge was saying who got what. He looked at me and he says, "What's wrong with you?" I said, "Well, I got shot up here." [points to left shoulder] He says, "Go get a shower. We'll see you later. We've got people to take care of." [chuckles] So, they had a little outdoor shower in there, and I cleaned up a little bit and they bandaged it up and put me in a little tent there with some other guys that weren't hurt too bad. And I was there for three or four days, and went back to the unit.

[788]

JSM: What happened to Paul Moore?

LL: They drug him out some way. They patched him up in that tent and flew him out and he recovered. Completely recovered.

JSC: Just recently died.

JSM: Just recently.

LL: Yeah, uh huh. He died of cancer about two years ago, not very long ago. Like I say, he went into the ministry. A very unique guy. His family - were - wealthy. I mean really wealthy. And when he went into the ministry, he had all of that money put in a trust and he would not use it. He lived in some of the dumps of New Jersey with bums. He and his wife would take them in and try to take care of them. He never used his wealth until he was - you know, made Bishop and it was okay to have a little more. He lived a life of poverty for many years, just to be with people.

JSM: What a person.

JSC: But in the 60's he came to be the director at Christ's Church Cathedral here in Indianapolis, so we were with their family before they had to leave. We - we children got second generation 	.[inaudible]

LL: Yeah. They had seven children by the time he got here to town. But at any rate, it was a miracle that he had survived. Well, about that time I got malaria - and oh my, it hit me like a ton of brick. And when I got back to the outfit, Walt says, "You can't be a line officer now." He says, "Here. You be adjutant. You stay here and keep records." - because I was weak, and we all had intestinal trouble because you would eat whatever you could get a hold of. So that malaria hit me hard and we had very little food and - a gunshot wound and what not. I had gone from 195 to 129 by that time. I was-I was pretty weak. I really didn't do very much walking.

[4-5 months after landing - invasion force coming]

JSM: How long of a time period was this now?

LL: Well, that would've - this would have been five months - four and a half to five months since we'd landed. And so I was running a battalion from a bed, [chuckles] and I wasn't doing much good. But, at that time, coast watchers up farther up the Solomon Islands radioed down and said, "We have the biggest flotilla we have ever seen and it's on the way to Guadalcanal." Eleven troop transports, each one capable of 11,000 to 12,000 men, 100,000 fresh troops coming down there to empower 10,000 beat up guys, because I was about like everyone else - a lot of us were sick. You know, we had of course air superiority - not superiority, but we had an air thing. They called it the "Cactus Air Force Base26." I don't know why they named it "Cactus," but they did. And then the navy had recouped a little bit, and they focused on that strip we called "Rabaul to Guadalcanal." Six hundred miles of water lined by islands on both sides. And they attacked them and sunk them. Boy, they sunk the Jap fleet. Only one of those troop transports got to Guadalcanal, and there were only two men alive on it when it got there.

JSID: [gasps]

LL: Sharks must have gotten fat that week. Yup. We would never have been able to repel 100,000. We never would have.

[845]

JSID: Was there a name for that battle?

LL: Oh - they might have called it Savo - the Battle of Savo. A couple of them were called the Battle of Savo Island. Sabo was a round island. There was Guadalcanal, Tulagi and Florida, and Savo was out here. And that 20 mile strip between Guadalcanal and Tulagi was called "Iron Bottom Bay," and there are 49 ships on the bottom there. You will never see 49 ships together. I mean, that's a huge number of warships together.

JSID: Is that "Iron Bottom Sound?" I've heard that or read that.

LL: Well - it probably is.

JSID: "Iron Bottom."

LL: "Iron Bottom." Yup. "Iron Bottom Sound" or "Iron Bottom Bay." Whatever you want it there. So at any rate, we were shot and the army started coming in to re-enforce us. So they took over the last month or month and a half of battle. So in the latter part of December then, we were to be evacuated and sent to Australia And to show you what condition I was in - and like I say there were many in my condition - I was weak so that I could barely walk. We got down to Red Beach where we would catch boats and go out get aboard ship to go to Australia. I remember standing on the beach. I don't remember getting aboard any craft. I don't remember getting aboard that troop transport. When my memory came back to me, I was walking on one of those transports and some Navy boy was telling us where we were going to stay. We came to this one little; I suppose you call it a state room. Anyway - and the officers had a little separate room. He says, "You're going to be in here. There will be another officer join you." He says, "There is a little shower stall in here, and there are a couple of beds in here." I stepped over that little bulk head thing there and went in and saw that bed, and boy. I thought, "Wow. A bed with a sheet on it." [chuckles] Five months sleeping in the jungle, I was ready for it. But, I took my Dungarees off and I thought, "I'm going to get a shower. I don't care what." So I went in there and I turned it on and it was a cold, salt water shower. [chuckles]

JSID: Oooooooh.

LL: That's the most unfulfilling shower I ever had in my life. But I washed a little bit and I stepped out of there and I passed by the wall there I saw somebody there and I said, "Hi," and started along. I thought there isn't anybody in here but me. I went back and looked and it was a mirror, and I had not seen myself - well I don't know - since we left New Zealand. Maybe 6 ½  months and I did not know who I was. I thought that can't be me, but it was. Then I went in there and fell on that bunk. You know what? I don't remember anything about that trip down to Australia. I don't know if I got up and ate. I don't know if I just lay there that whole time. I don't know.

[888]

JSM: No victory celebration.

LL: Uh, uh. I didn't even know I was there. So we landed in Brisbane, Australia'", and I came to when we landed and I realized we were in Australia and so we got off and they took us to a special camp and started rehabilitating us to go back to combat, when we got well.

JSM: Did you feel well trained? Did you feel as a-?

LL: No.

JSIII: .-superior soldier to the Japanese?

LL: No.

JSM: Supplies were tight.

LL: We began to feel that we could whip them by October. You know we began to get some confidence, but as far as being trained for jungle warfare or what to do, you learned that step by step. You learned that when the bullets were flying. Mm, hmmm. How -?

JSIV: I'm sorry.

LL: Go ahead.

[901]

JSIV: Okay. How is it coming back home? How was the welcoming crew?

LL: There was no big welcoming committee because the war was still on.

JSIV: Mm, hmmm.

LL: No. From returning to Australia there, we trained in Australia, we got well, we went back to New Guinea and back to the other end of New Britain Island. We had more combat. I was sent home after that second landing on "Cape Gloucester", it's called. And uh - here again I was taken back to New Guinea and then to Australia. Then from Australia we took a PPY. That's a little plane that doesn't amount to much and is held together with strings and mirrors, I think. We island hopped to Funifuti, Palmyra, Hawaii - spent a couple of days - couple of nights in Hawaii, and then got on a decent plane and flew to San Francisco. From San Francisco then, I called the girl I was engaged to who lived here in Indianapolis and I called my folks in Florida and I said, "I'm back, I'm going to Indianapolis, and I'm going to get married." [chuckles] So then I had to take a train from San Francisco. We flew under the Golden Gate Bridge when we came in. And I got a train and I thought, "Well, I'll get to see the Rocky Mountains." We went through the Rockies at night. I never saw a stone. I woke up the next morning and we were in Nebraska, I think, or somewhere along in there. It was a cattle car run and a milk run. We stopped in every little town. It took us forever to get to Chicago. I got to Chicago and had to change train stations. I was standing in line. I had never been in Chicago in my life. I was standing in line to get on a train to go to Indianapolis, and someone behind me says, "Gadi?" It was my sister-in-law - she and her husband. He was a doctor at Mayo's at that point and they were coming down to be at the wedding. So, we met at the train station. We rode to Indianapolis, came into Union Station, and there she was. Boy. Ohhh - 

[930]

JSIII: Your fiancé. Isn't that great? When you were over at Guadalcanal or the other islands, were you aware of other war activities? Where you stood?

LL: Very little.

JSIII: - current events?

LL: Very little. No, we didn't get much war news. Nope. We knew very little about what was going on. Nope. The interesting part is that when Guadalcanal was over that the Japanese had lost so many ships, so many planes, so many troops, they were never able to attack anybody again. The rest of the war, they were defending islands that they had captured. They had lost all their power to attack. So it was really the decisive battle of the Pacific.

[940]

JSIII: Have you - have you been able to keep in contact or be aware of your troops?

LL: Some of them have come through town. The little boy that carried the BAR, a boy named Steele, he lived in St. Louis. He came over to see me. A couple of boys were out here in this area for a reunion, and they came to see me or call me and I went down and saw them. Some of the officers have passed by, so I have seen a few of them. The Officers Class, there is one guy that has tried to keep in touch with everybody. They have a reunion every year, the Seventh Reserve Officers Class. We did not go because as I say my wife was in post polio syndrome for awhile and couldn't travel. So I didn't try to go. I have not been to one of those. The last one they had, I believe in New Orleans - I can't remember. They have them all over the country. They sent us roster of all of the boys they knew were alive and dead. Three-fourths of my class is dead, and others were in such poor health they can hardly go. The reunion now they may get ten to fifteen guys there. But, the widows of some of the boys that had been to reunions, they come, so they have thirty to forty counting those wives that come. Isn't that interesting that they still go to that reunion?

JSIII: Oh sure.

LL: But - so, I had a letter from Goldblatt when Paul Moore died. He'd been in touch with him a lot because he's a doctor over in Massachusetts. He said, "I've tried to figure it out, and you and I are the only two still alive of Fifth Company." And he says, "Maybe that whole battalion." So there's not many.

JSIII: You mentioned the difficulty when you shot the soldier and what impact that had. From an emotional standpoint it is hard for anybody to appreciate what you went through. Do you feel -was there a time that your experience, was difficult to think about or talk about or do you feel like it changed your life at all?

LL: At that moment, the moment I shot him, I had a surge, "Yea ho I've done it!" you know. "I've gotten rid of one of those bums." Then, when it quieted down a little bit I thought, "What have I done?" So the surge of the moment is, "Hey I have won," but it didn't take long to regret. I think about it every once in a while now - that boy. Sure am sorry I've got that on my resume.

JSIV: Was there ever a time when it was hard to speak of your experiences?

LL: Was what?

[975]

JSIV: Was there ever a time when it was hard to talk about your experiences?

LL: Didn't talk about it for many years, did we Judy? When the children started growing up and some of their friends would come over and they began to ask me about it and then I began to talk about it, but that was quite a while. That was quite a while.

JIV: What awards or honors did you receive?

LL: Well, two or three letters of accommodation. I think I showed you one when you were here before. And then the Silver Star, the Purple Heart and the Presidential Citations. Yeah.

JSIII: The Silver Star is one below the Medal of Honor?

LL: Yeah. Uh-huh.

JSIII: And that was for -?

LL: Well, it was given to me after that last battle I described to you, and I have never read the citation. As I told you I don't think much of citations for bravery because - gosh everybody was with me everything I did. Maybe they thought because I was shot and went ahead and fought for another four hours or so. Maybe that is why. I don't know. But at any rate, that's what it was about, but I don't put much stock in that. I wasn't any braver than anyone else. We all marched down that hill. We all pushed them into the ocean and a lot of guys were shot worse than I was.

JSIII: With- with your weapons training, you receive some special recognition, correct?

LL: Well - you know, I did as well as you can do with the weapons training. I was an expert in everything.

JSIII: An expert is above sharpshooter?

LL: Yes. It's marksman, sharpshooter and expert, and I was fortunate to be an expert in everything. I could shoot, but I have not shot a high-powered rifle since the war was over. The only thing I've shot was a B-B gun to show the kids how to shoot.

JSIII: Did your experience with the Japanese-did it affect once you got back here dealing with Orientals and Asians in general?

LL: Yeah I - for quite a while I was pretty upset that they were making all of the television sets, cars and all that stuff. Yeah, I watched it a while. But I guess I - I think about it now, but I don't really resent it I guess.

JSIV: I'm just curious - 

JSID: Well, for - for those of us who don't appreciate the culture back in the mid-40's when you came back, John and I were talking, what were the popular cars, the type of music or what did you do to socialize? How was life in the mid 40's?

[Counter at 1008]

LL: Never really thought about that, you know. You just go through something. The music was decent, I mean, it was music.

JSIII: It wasn't Elvis.

LL: It's not now. Now it's noise as far as I am concerned. But back then - 30's and 40's, Bing Crosby was singing. You guys probably never head Bing Crosby. You will hear him sing "White Christmas." They play his music there - every Christmas time. There were love songs. There were a lot of war songs: "Don't Sit Under the Apple Tree with Anyone Else but Me," "Until I Come Marching Home," and that sort of thing, but they had nice tunes to them, and when you danced, you danced with a partner. Stand in the comer and do this, uh huh. That is of course what I grew up with. They were pretty songs, and they had a melody. The Big Bands were playing, Glenn Miller and all of those guys played and it was beautiful music. They were great musicians. And life was quiet. There weren't a lot of nightclubs or anything like that. I have never been to a nightclub in my life. You went to church and even through the 50's, everyone went to church. It was the thing to do. You'd have family gatherings and friends around. Nothing of a wild life. I don't know when that really came in, but by the time it did, I wasn't interested in it anyway. It was very peaceful. You played Bridge, Monopoly or something like that in the evenings with family or friends.

JSID: Listened to the radio.

LL: Listened to the radio. Radio is so far superior to television. I tell my children that when the Lone Ranger came on, boy everybody listened, you know. The fiery horse at the speed of light, a cloud of dust and a hearty, "High ho, Silver." "The Lone Ranger rides again." Boy, you were with it and no matter what the crummy story was, you could follow - you knew in your mind what was going on. You can watch the Lone Ranger on television today and it is the dullest thing you've ever seen. When you put it on film, it fades. Jack Benny was the greatest comedian on radio that ever lived, but when he came on television he lasted a couple of years. He's gone. All of them. Television cannot compare to radio. Cannot do it.

JSID: With the end of the war, was the country prepared to have all of the service men come back? Were there problems with jobs or housing or-?

LL: There was - you know - excitement when the whole thing was finally over, yeah, When VE and VJ day occurred. Sure. There were big celebrations then. But uh, by that time, when I came back I was teaching in Marine Corps school at Quantico teaching other young officers what they should know. I had some interesting people that I taught. Colonel Devareau had been the commander of Wake Island when it fell; one of the first islands to fall. He'd been a prisoner of war. Some way or other he got liberated early, I don't know why, but he came back and was in one of the classes that I was teaching there at Quantico. And the Dutch Marines came over and took the training too. So I was able to meet and instruct some pretty interesting groups. And that - that was interesting. One thing that I did during the war, I have always been one to memorize poems and enjoy them. When we would get a day off from patrolling, we would be sitting under a coconut tree and one day I said to some of the guys, "Would you like to hear a poem?" ''Nah.'' I said, "I'm going to give it anyway." I gave several poems, and they liked it. I gave "Casey at the Bat," "The Cremation of Sam McGee," "The Passing of the Outhouse," "The Highway Man." Some of those things, and boy it got popular. Every time F Company had a day off, others would come over and listen as I gave those dumb poems. I gave them in Australia, New Guinea, Cape Gloucester, Tulagi, Guadalcanal. It was all over the South Pacific. When I got back here, I still enjoyed them and learned a lot of them and I bet I have put on poetry programs for - I don't know - a hundred times for different groups. Some of them now for the American Legions, some literary groups, Teacher's Retirement Homes, all around, even Sunday school classes. I have given poetry programs hundreds of times.

[1066]

JSM: Can you tell us a poem here that is especially meaningful to you?

LL: Those that I gave overseas where just for fun and entertainment. Sure. There are several important poems that I use more now.

["The Touch of the Master's Hand"]

It was battered and scarred, and the auctioneer hardly thought it was worth his while to spend much time on the old violin, but he held it up with a smile. "What am I bidding, good folks?" he asked. "Who will start the bidding for me? "One dollar?" "One dollar." "Two?" "Two." "Who make it three?" Three dollars once, three dollars twice, it is almost gone, but no in the room far back a grey haired man came forward and picked up the bow. He wiped the dust from the violin, tightened the loosened strings, played a melody pure and sweet as the caroling 
angels. The music stopped, and the auctioneer in a voice that was touched and low, said, "What can I bid for this violin?" and he held it up with the bow. "A thousand dollars," "Make it two." "Two thousand," "Who will make it three?" "Three thousand once, three thousand twice, going and gone," said he. People cheered. Someone cried, "We do not quite understand what changed its worth," and a voice replied, "It was the touch of the master's hand." Many a man with his life out of tune, battered and scarred by sin, is auctioned cheap to the foolish crowd, 
much like the old violin. A mess of pottage, a glass of wine, a game and passes on. He's going once, he's going twice, he's going and is almost gone, but the master comes, and the thoughtless crowd can never quite understand the worth of a soul or the change that is wrought by the touch of the master's hand.

[clapping]

JSID: That's great.

JSIV: Thanks.

JSID: That is good.

JSIV: Yeah.

LL: Well I suppose the most popular with the boys over there were those three I mentioned: "Casey At The Bat," "Cremation of Sam McGee," and "The Passing of the Outhouse." Do you know any of those? Don't you huh?

JSID: Well, "Casey at the Bat."

LL: You've heard that one yeah. Of course over there the bathing and toilet facilities were non-existent, so the boys always enjoyed "The Passing of the Outhouse." It was written here in Indiana by a man that was - he lives in New Castle or Greencastle - oh I forget which - named Smith. He wrote it to James Whitcomb Riley in Riley's style, and Riley made a copy of it and left it in his desk, and after his death that was found and many people thought Riley had written it. I've seen copies of it in Brown County with Riley's name on it, but Riley did not write it. It is a funny little poem. Have you ever used an outhouse John?

JSIV: Yeah.

LL: Sure. [chuckles]

Behind the house and barn it stood, a half a mile or more - 

JSC.: No. "When memory keeps me company - "

[1098]

LL: Oh. Okay. Yeah.

When memory keeps me company and moves to smiles and tears,

A weather-beaten object looms through the mist of years.

Behind the house and barn it stood, a half a mile or more,

And hurrying feet a path had made, straight to its swinging door,

And oft the passing traveler drove slow, to heave a sigh,

And watch our modest hired girl slip out with glances shy. 

We had our posy garden, and women loved it well, 

I loved it too, but better still I loved the stronger smell, 

That filled the evening breezes so full of homey cheer, 

And told the night-o'er taken tramp that human life was near. 

All day fat spiders spun their webs to catch the buzzing flies, 

That flitted to and from the house, where Ma was making pies, 

And once a nest of hornets bold had built a palace there, 

And stung my unsuspecting Aunt - I must not tell you where. 

Then father took a flaming pole, that was a happy day, 

He nearly burned the building down, but the hornets left to stay. 

On lazy August afternoons it made a little bower, 

Where my grandsire whiled away an hour. 

It was not the nicest spot that anyone could find, 

But the berry bush was red and the steaming soil behind. 

When summer bloom began to fade and winter to carouse, 

We banked the little building with a heaps of hemlock boughs. 

When the crust was on the snow and the sullen skies were grey, 

In sooth that building was no place where one could wish to stay. 

We did our duties promptly, one purpose swayed the mind: 

To tarry not or linger long for what was left behind. 

For the torture of that icy seat would make a Spartan sob, 

And needs must scrape the goose flesh with a lacerating cob, 

Which from a frost-encrusted nail, suspended by a string, 

My father was a frugal man. We wasted not a thing. 

When grandpa had to "go out back" and make his morning call, 

We bundled up the dear old man in a muftler and a shawl. 

We knew the hole on which he sat t'was padded all around, 

And once I dared to sit there - t'was all too wide I found. 

My loins were all too little, and I jack-knifed there to stay, 

They had to come and get me out, or I'd have passed away. 

Then father said, "Ambition is a thing that boys should shun," 

And I must use the children's hole 'til childhood days were done. 

I will always marvel at the craft that made those holes so true, 

The baby hole, the slender hole that fitted Sister Sue. 

But now I have grown to manhood, traveled around a bit, 

But still in the lap of luxury my lot has been to sit. 

And ere I die I'll eat the fruit of trees I robbed of yore, 

And seek the shanty where my name is carved upon the door. 

I wean the old familiar smell en-sooth my faded soul, 

I'm now a man but nonetheless, I use the children's hole. 


. . .And they loved that one. 

[laughing] 

JSM:That's great. 

[1128] 

JSIV: That's good. 

LL: That was our break during combat over there and the boys had a good time. In fact some of the big shots would come down there, and when I got back to the states and teaching school, I remember Colonel Enright, every time we were together, he would say, "Gadi, my wife wants to hear some of those poems." And so I've done it for many years now. Just lots and lots of poems.

JSM: I love it. 

JSIV: Thanks. 

LL: Well, I've filled up your tape, I'm sure. You can cut that out. You can edit that through.

[Ruffaging of papers]

JSID: No, no, no. That's -that's part of you.

JSIV: Yeah. Yeah. I don't -the time is-


[Recording stops at 1135 on counter.]