Perry Mibab
[b. 9/7/1933]
[0:00:07.3]
“Today is October 7, 2007. I am Cassidy Laikin and I am interviewing Mr. Perry Mibab at 3694 Cathedral Oaks Place, South Jacksonville, FL 32217. Mr. Mibab is a family friend. He is 74 years old and was born on September 7th, 1933. He is a civilian holocaust survivor.”
CL: Okay, Mr. Mibab, where were you born?
PM: Labima Valinsk. It is in Poland.
CL: What was it like living there before the war?
PM: It was terrible living there before the war. It was terrible because the Polaks and Ukraines were exactly what the Germans are–they helped kill the Jews.
CL: Okay, can you tell me about your family that you were with?
PM: Yeah, we were seven children. I was the baby in the family and my father¬–I don’t remember because I was seven years old when they killed him. But, I had a brother, twenty-eight; he was killed. I had a brother, twenty-five; he was killed. I had a brother, sixteen; he was killed. I had a sister, twenty-two; she was killed. And then a sister-in-law I had in my family and she was killed. But she had a baby who was two years old. We saved her, [so] she lived.
CL: Okay, do you remember the first change you saw when the war began?
PM: Yeah, the Germans attacked Russia. The war started in 1941—[On] June the 22nd, 1941. We [were] on the border, like seven miles from the border. The Germans started [at] four o'clock in the morning and at about ten o'clock in the morning they already came into our city. And by the way, they started to kill the Jews. If they didn't know which houses were Jewish, the Polaks and Ukraines used to tell them. Our city had 50,000 population: half was Jewish, 25,000 were Polaks and Ukraines. And by the way, they started to build a ghetto. Do know what a ghetto means?
CL: No.
PM: You don't know what a ghetto is? They take a section and they put barbed wires and they squeeze in all the Jews in one section. This is called a ghetto. You cannot live any place else but you have to live in this section where the Germans tell you to live.
CL: Okay.
PM: And if anybody goes out of the section and goes in a different one, he’s entitled to be killed. Anybody could kill him, there was no law. It’s just terrible. It took them to build this section, the ghetto like they call it, three months. And by September, we all had to be–[gone.] They gave us one week [to go into the ghetto.] When we had everything ready, they said, “You all have to leave everything where you all live and move into this section.”
CL: And who were you with at this time, at the ghetto?
PM: I was with all my family. We still had the whole family; they didn’t start to kill yet. Yeah, we all moved into the ghetto. We lived in a little house, a little apartment that we had [and] we squeezed in. We were sleeping in a bunk bed. [Do] you know what a bunk bed looks like? People in one bed like that we were sleeping. And then they started to take the Jewish men from sixteen to fifty-five to work– like slavery. What they did was they were digging tunnels. They needed to dig tunnels because they wanted an airplane park. [But] this was a lie. They dug the tunnels because they wanted to kill the Jews. And what happened was it took them a long time to build the tunnels. It took about a year. So we [were] living already three years, three months in the ghetto. And the first pogrom, do you know what a pogrom means?
CL: No
PM: It was when they started to kill the Jews.
CL: Okay
PM: On September the 1st, 1942, they did not say they [were] going to start [killing the] Jews, but they [did]. By the way in the morning, they attacked. They [told] the Polish police and the Ukraine police to go ahead and start to kill the Jews. And we were in the ghetto 25,000 Jews.
[0:04:49.2]
CL: Did you know what was happening at this time?
PM: Not yet, but they started to shoot and kill. And they grabbed anybody on the street and they were breaking into houses. They would take them out and they took them five miles out of the city. Up there they had the bunk–in the three tunnels, that I was telling you they dig, and they started to kill the Jews. And they filled in each tunnel they filled up two tunnels. They killed in the first pogrom–it took two weeks–they killed 18,000 Jews. 9000 in each grave, and they covered it up. Then they came out and they announced, "No more killing, you are welcome to come out we are not going to kill any more Jews". So then we started to come back out. But what happened, then they say there are too many Jews left still. Then four months later on November the 13th, 1942, they killed another 4,000. They didn't tell you but they started to. In the morning when you got up, anybody that was on the street they started to catch them. They grabbed them, and then they killed them. They took them away and killed them. They left about 8,000 Jews. These 3,000 Jews they kept–they picked who had a good profession that they needed. They kept them alive for another year. On December the 10th, 1943, they killed the last Jews. They say they were going to kill them all. Anybody who sees the Jews is allowed to kill them. It is not going [to] be ten days till you could come out. And they killed all of them. From the 25,000 Jews, they left in our city, eighty people survived.
CL: Did they kill the children?
PM: Oh, they killed children. Sure, they killed everybody. It doesn’t matter–children, women, old, everybody. They killed everybody, see.
CL: And was it during this period that you lost your family and friends?
PM: In the first pogrom, they killed 18,000. I lost my father, I lost my two brothers, and I lost a sister. The second pogrom, I lost only one brother. The last pogrom I lost another brother and I lost my sister-in-law.
[0:07:11.4]
CL: How did you survive the pogrom?
PM: Okay, well the first one we had a bunker. I was running under the bunker where I was able to hide. And then the last pogrom, they caught–me and my mom. They took us to this place, and over there we had to wait over there to be loaded up and trucked five miles out of the city. Over there, the last people they killed and burned the bodies. Because what I did was, I ran away with my mother. I was waiting in the line for the linen, and what I saw was an open door and I ran in and I went under a bed. And I was laying there maybe in five minutes the Germans were chasing me. And luckily when they picked up the mattress with the bed—on top of the bed—I went under the bed and hide myself. When he picked up the mattress, luckily, the mattress was laying in a big screen. The screen was heavy that he could not see me, but I saw him. And he looked up, and I got scared. I fell asleep. This was maybe 10 o'clock in the morning. I slept maybe till, I think I woke up like one or two o'clock the middle of the night. I knew how to walk out from the ghetto, from the place there–the barbed wire. I took my momma and she didn't have no shoes. She was wearing–this was December, we were cold and she was wearing–walking barefoot. And I walked over there. I knew a Polish woman that–she used to work for us and I walked over there. I knew where she was living, and I walked over there. She took me in, opened up the door, and she let me in the cellar. Already in the cellar was already my sister (the one who lives here in Jacksonville), because she had a little baby, that was too little (three years old), she [was] saved. But they killed the mother from the little baby. And I had over there my sister, my brother, and the little girl. From there, the next day, my father paid a Polish man a lot of money in case somebody survived, that they should save us. And we went at night–we walked five miles out of the city. We came and he took us in and we stayed there three months. And then the Germans and the Russians were starting to fight and the Russians pushed them out. They came in and we were able to run out and went in the forest. The Russians kept on telling us they saw us and they saw we were Jewish. They said, “Don’t stay here because they are going to kill you, so keep on going this way. They told us where to go and we went. We walked twenty or thirty miles a day, and we came more and deeper into Russia, where Russia would have pushed out the Germans. After all of this is over, the Germans and the Russians took big trucks and they loaded them up. Meanwhile came more Jews, not only me, we maybe had fifty or sixty Jews saved up and they took us in a different city. Deeper away from the front because they were afraid, in case the Russians had to go back, the Germans would come back here and they will kill us. So they took us away. We stayed there about a few months until the war was over. Then we took a train and we came from Poland. We went all the way–Poland is a big Country–we went all the way to the other side of Poland, and this was almost to the German border. But, you couldn’t go–America was there–American soldiers liberated half of Germany and Russia. You know that Germany was divided. Berlin is the capital of Germany.
CL: Right
PM: Berlin was divided in four sections. It was Germany, Russia had a part, America had a part, England had a part, and French had a part. And we were on the Russian side but we wanted to come to the American side, we were scared, but we couldn’t. We needed to go another 100 miles but we couldn’t go. What happened was now a Russian officer who was Jewish, he was living–he [was going] twice a week from where we were staying in Poland to Berlin. He was delivering the supplies. I don't know what he was delivering, but he was driving a big Studebaker, a big truck. And every time he went, he used to tell us, "Do not worry, I will take three or four every time I go.” And that is how he smuggled us out West from East Russia all the way to Berlin. [When] we came to Berlin, the Americans grabbed us¬–they took us in. This was 1945, when the war just got over. It was over maybe a month or two [after]. The Americans–who by the way put us in a displaced persons camp— they started to feed us because we didn’t have any food, no nothing, and we were sick. And they kept us three years over there. I didn't have no school [and] I was seven years old. I was seven, eight, or nine. When they librated me, I was ten. And then when I set free, I was three years in the displaced persons camp and no one wanted to touch us because we had lice and no skin, no nothing.
And then after the three years, I was already almost fourteen then. I went to Israel with my momma and my brother. We went to Israel and I lived there for twelve years. I went in the Israeli army, but still I didn’t go to school. And after I finished the army, I came to America just for a visit. Then I went back home and my wife was born in Brooklyn, but she came to visit Israel and I met her there. I couldn’t speak a word of English and she couldn’t speak a word of Hebrew. But we got together and forty-nine years ago I married her. We had four kids and I came to Jacksonville. I have lived already fifty years here. And that’s the whole story my friend. I will tell you this in a minute, but it’s just hard to believe it is even true.
CL: Right, how did you learn English?
PM: Oh, my wife couldn’t speak Hebrew, and she couldn’t speak Yiddish. She only spoke English. And I didn’t have any choice. I came to America with her. And finally she learned Yiddish and she was a teacher in Hebrew school. She was teaching thirty-three years and she died ten to eleven years ago. But then I came [and] I had to try to work and make a living. I had to support [my children]. I had two children and then I had two more—four children. But what I did was I bought a service station and I didn't need the language so much. I could ask the wife. But then I gave good education to all of my four kids. My wife was a college educator, she knew English. But like I said, I know you would be surprised that I didn’t have one day at a normal public school.
CL: Right, and why do you think this is important to share with future generations?
PM: It’s important to let them see what people can do. The Polaks and Ukraines are the same thing like the Germans; they didn’t want to help. After the war, I went out to try to find someone to give me something to eat [like] a piece of bread. And they opened up the door and they said, “Oh [you’re] Jewish,” and they closed the door and did not want to give me [anything]. Let them see how they were. They were the collaborators. They even today hate the Jews. But, they just hate them, see. You don't know how lucky you are to live in America, let me tell you.
[0:15:42.6]
CL: Right, and how did you feel when you heard the war was over?
PM: I felt good; I was thanking God I survived. But I lost all my family almost, and I was ten years old. I had to start up and those days we didn’t have welfare like you in America. You get the government to help you but we did not have anybody to help us. Finally when we came out from the bunkers, and we were able to reach the American zone, they brought in from America–they brought in Jewish people. And they were able to speak Yiddish with us, our language. And they opened up a hospital and they opened up a kitchen and they started to feed us. They tried to cure us. I didn’t know what an egg looked like. I did not know what milk was. They gave us powdered milk, powdered egg, and just tried to keep us alive.
CL: Was it just your mother, your sister, and you who survived?
PM: Only my momma survived, one sister they killed, and one sister survived. She lives in Jacksonville. But my father, I think he was fifty-three and he was killed. I had a brother, twenty-eight; and he was married. He had a child who was two years old. They killed his wife and he was killed. Then I had a brother, twenty-five; he was single, and he also was killed. Then I had a sister, twenty-two; she was engaged and had to get married. Then they killed her in 1942 in the first pogrom. And then I had a brother, sixteen; also got killed.
CL: Wow, did your mother go to Israel when you went?
PM: Yeah, my mother lived in Israel, yeah. And I had a brother who lived in Israel too. He is one year older than me. He is seventy-five.
CL: How were you able to get to Israel?
PM: Oh, when they cured us, in 1948. When the state of Israel was established, we came with the ship. They brought us in. Israel was established May of '48 and we came six months later. They took us in. We lived there in a tent for a year. There was no food over there too, but still you wanted to think nobody would kill you. You see because you live between Jewish people so you are safe.
CL: And what year did you come to America?
PM: America, I came in 1956. Then I went back and I came again in 1960. I was already married, and I had one son–he was a year old. And then I had one born in Brooklyn, New York. Then I had one born in Jacksonville.
CL: Once you came to America, did you take any type of classes or anything?
PM: No, I had to try to find a job to make a living, [so] I was working.
CL: Did your sister come with you?
PM: And you see, in Brooklyn, in New York, it wasn't a big problem. I didn’t need English because there were a lot of Jewish people living there and I was able to speak Yiddish with no problem. But it was still cold over there and I couldn’t take it. I came to Florida. And Florida, I had a hard time to get a job because I couldn’t speak English, but I found a man who was Jewish and he spoke Yiddish and he took me in. I was working there two years, until I learned a little bit. And finally I opened up a station and I stayed forty years in my business. I just retired not too long ago; a few years ago.
CL: Yeah, when you came did you sister come with you?
PM: My sister came in 1949.
CL: Okay
PM: Yeah, she went from Germany to Jacksonville. And from Germany, I went to Israel. I didn’t want to come to America straight. I wanted to go to Israel.
CL: Oh, okay
PM: Yeah, we were seven kids and survived three. My father was a young man; fifty-three years old. And don’t forget, 25,000 Jews in this little city. We wrote a book fifty-five years ago, and it says in the book the history of the city. And only eighty people survived. From the 25,000. A matter of fact, my son goes all the time to the Holocaust in Washington—they have the museum there. From each city in Poland there, they have monuments and everything. My son brought me pictures. You can see it and it just makes you sick.
CL: Right
PM: The Polaks and Ukraines, they are nasty like you wouldn’t believe it. They are the same as the Germans. And the Germans when they pulled in didn’t know who was a Jew. They did not know until they came in. And they showed this house and this house that they are Jewish. They used to grab all the men to work for nothing. They worked like slavery. The tunnels they dug for months. Then they started to kill the people.
CL: And is that what you were doing?
PM: No, I was baby. Then I was seven years old. They took fifteen or older. Between fifteen to sixteen and up to fifty.
CL: What did you do all day?
PM: I stayed in the house and was not allowed to go outside. That’s what the story is. Then Steven Spielberg came and interviewed me for six hours. I think he made me a part in the movie. Did you ever see the Schindler’s List?
CL: No
PM: No, because I think he put in about two or three minutes of a part of mine of when I survived as a child. Thank you for being interested. To tell you how lucky you are to be living in the United States. Not to live over there. If you would give me a free ticket, I would not go visit over there.
[0:22:48.5]
CL: Right, what do you think the biggest thing you learned from your experience is?
PM: I wish my father would have left because my father had a lot of family in America. He had three brothers, and family and everything. And he didn’t want to go because he was very religious and he didn’t think America was religious enough. I wish he would have left over there and I wish I wouldn’t have been born there. [Been] born right here in America. Doesn’t have to be Jacksonville, even New York. When I came to America, we met one of my brothers who was alive. He was eighty-six years old, and he told me all of his stories how he was begging his father to come to America but he didn’t want to come. And he saw when I was playing outside on the street.
CL: Yeah
PM: And the Polacks used to call me dirty Jew in Polish. They used to say, "Go to Palestine." And I would say, “Why would they [say that]?” I did not know what Palestine means even. And I asked my father and he said that is what they call dirty Jew, that they do not want us here.
CL: Yeah, that’s awful.
PM: Yeah, what are you fourteen?
CL: Yeah
PM: Do you need anything else, I would be glad to answer you.
CL: Is there anything else you would like to add about during the war?
PM: No, because I don���t want to tell you about how many bodies the Germans used to grab the children and threw out of the windows to kill them. It’s just hard to believe. I don’t want to tell you.
CL: Right. How do you feel now, seeing your children get such a better life?
PM: I feel, thank God I am living in America. I wouldn’t go anywhere else to live. That is why I gave my children the best schools to go and let them have a good education. They knew I couldn’t have it. Even today, I don’t know how to write English. I know how to sign my name and that is all I know. But I got my older son who graduated law school. You know Benny, the orthodontist?
CL: Yes
PM: Does he do your braces?
CL: Yes, he did.
PM: And then I have another boy who lives in Boca Raton. I have another daughter and I think she knows you too. She lives in Atlanta too.
CL: Yeah
PM: Yeah, Miriam. And I live by myself. I got a little kitty with me–a little kitten who is four years old.
CL: Oh, yeah. That’s nice
PM: Okay, thanks for calling.
CL: Ok, thank you so much!
