Ralph Swartsell
[b. 3/ 5 / 1926]
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[Note: adjust the following paragraph and put it in brackets if this was not included at beginning of your tape.]
“Today is January 26th, 2008. I am Kathryn Lerch and I am interviewing Mr. Ralph Swartsell at Park Tudor School in Indianapolis. Mr. Swartsell is 81 old and was born on May 3rd, 1926. Mr. Swartsell served in World War II [and] was in the 1st and later the 5th Marine Division and held the following rank: Sergeant.
[00:02:02]
KWL: Just to jog your memory, Mr.Swartsell, Could you tell me a little more how you got involved in the army... in the marines? Were you drafted? Did you enlist?
[00:02:11]
RS: I enlisted...My Mother signed my papers and I've got a very interesting tale to tell about my enlistment. I was an eighteen or seventeen year old boy and mom signed for me so I could get in the Marines and I came over to Indianapolis on an old bus and they put me through this naval exam down on Madison Avenue the old navy armory down on Madison Avenue and I got in front of the doctor and looked at my bare feet and he says "I'm sorry son you've got flat feet. We won't be able to accept you." So my recruiting sergeant when I got back to Richmond told me if I would faithfully wear some arched supports "I'm sure that you could get in there." So I did for a period of about three or four months and I tried again and they sent me through the neck of the exam for draftees and the doctor looked at my feet and saw had two feet and said "you're accepted."
KWL: Can you remember where you were on December 7th, 1941?
[00:03:35]
RS: Yes Ma'am can remember I had a paper route. We lived in [Centerville] which is just west of Richmond and I had a paper route and I had been I able to keep me [like?] just a little money with my paper route and I would hitchhike to Richmond to go to a movie. Well, I can remember the vehicle I got a ride back in from after the movie from Richmond to Centerville. It was a ninety forty Chevrolet, was real fancy and had radio in it and that's when I heard that was the December the 7th when I heard they attacked at Pearl Harbor.
KWL: What was your reaction to that?
[00:04:24]
RS: It was unbelievable because I was interested in what was happening in the world. I can remember when France surrendered; I can remember when Hitler went into Poland and things like that and I just—you know—was overcome by that because I had heard about the Japanese men that were in Washington trying to negotiate with the US Congress and President and they faithfully said that they would not do anything like that, but they lied.
KWL: Did you have other Siblings—other brothers in your family?
[00:05:10]
RS: Yes I did. I was the middle boy. I had an older brother. He was not able to ever attend anything in World War II as far as the military goes. My younger brother who was exactly fifty one weeks younger than I was in the navy but he didn't get into the war situation at all and I had a younger sister who later in life married a career soldier. Then when he got out he became an aeronautical engineer at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.
KWL: Very Interesting. You mentioned that you were living in Richmond Indiana at the time. Were other members of your friends at school Decided they all wanted to join as well in addition to your interest.
[00:05:58]
RS: I don’t recall where many of them being interested. For some reason I was interested and the marines was the right way to go
KWL: You mentioned that you were in the Fifth Marines where you started out in company B.
[00:06:25]
RS: Yes, My involvement with the Fifth Marine Division didn't come about until after I had spent six weeks in boot camp and another six weeks in a tank training school that was a part of Camp Elliot, which was a marine camp outside of San Diego and this camp was just the bare necessities— tent camp. In fact, I never slept when I was in the Marine Corps, I never slept when I was in the Marine Corps in anything but a tent wherever I was at unless on the ground until later in the occupation of Japan—the first barracks that I slept in.
KWL: Quite conditioning... being outdoors all the time. You had to Travel across the country to get to camp Eliot, you train I would assume.
[00:07:29]
RS: well, when... when the camp...was in San Diego, the marine boot camp was the first place I went to after I got across in the train—that was an experience there . We traveled in a Pullman car believe it or not, but it still takes four days to get there and the train went on the side track for any freight train because it was more important for the country to get war supplies to the West Coast than it was to get new recruits to Camp Thompson.
KWL: It must have been quite an experience traveling out of Indiana and seeing sights you have never seen before.
[00:08:25]
RS: Definitely. I'll be quite honest with you; my family never had an indoor bathroom facility until after I got out of the Marine Corps in 1947
KWL: Can you remember some of your first days in the service? What are your impressions for that? [00:08:49]
RS: the Marine Corps you learn very quickly when you should do and what you shouldn’t do and you know that they’re serious when they tell you can’t do this or that. they don’t physically punish you but the things they punish you with of things that you like to do like eat good food and things like that and you suffer for not being able to go to the chow hall with the rest of the troops and things like that because you did something wrong of course this is i'm talking about the year 1943. this was the year it was
KWL: now you didn’t get yourself in trouble though did you?[00:09:48]
RS: I was always a model.
KWL: how did you get through your first boot camp experience? In inspiration? Other friends you made there?[00:09:56]
RS: the only friend I really made was one of the ones after I gotta… when we had got to the… we had already graduated boot camp we were waiting on a bus to take us to the tank training school who had requested the marines did get in your request… they offered you three requests: my first choice was air wing my second choice was tanks but they gave me tanks because they had plenty in the air wing and the earliest man I met that I became friends was gentlemen by the name of Sandy Adams and I was with him all the time until I got discharged in 1947.
KWL: He was your best friend wasn’t he?[00:10:58]
RS: yes
KWL: that’s amazing… you said that you want to tank training school after you were in San Diego. Where was that a training school?[00:11:01]
RS: it was the outside in the mountains, outside of San Diego and we... all the time when I was in the marine corps we slept on cots ...the old army cots but in the tank training school we didn’t even have a pad on the cot we had a cot, two blankets and some heavy wool clothing a jacket and trousers and that’s all we have as far as keeping warm and each and every morning there is enough [snow?] in the mountains that there was ice in the fire pits but by 10:00 we were sweating.
KWL: after you finished with your training in 1943 where was your next destination?[00:11:59]
RS: out of Tank training school we were sent to camp Pendleton, California. A little tent camp north of the main camp that camp Pendleton close to the ocean side California it was called Aliso canyon A-L-I-S-O canyon and that was nothing more than ...that’s where all of them they formed up the fifth tank battalion. There were three companies A, B, C and then Headquarters Company. Each company had approximately 155 men in it. Headquarters Company didn’t have as many men. they had maintenance up the tanks for them and they had what they called a tank retriever which was a large vehicle that had a boom on it that was capable of lifting a tank and all the other necessary vehicle’s it took to work on tanks.
KWL: When you were there at the camp what was the configuration of each crew that went on a tank.[00:13:19]
RS: there were five men to a crew in a Sherman tank: there was the tank commander, who sat in the turret and directed the operation of the tank. He had a hatch which the had heavy glass around... small glass windows approximately 6in. long and maybe 2 and 1/2 in. wide all the way around the hatch as well as the portion that opened up , that was the tank commander, and he had a seat where he could sit in their and it immediately in front of him sitting down at a lower level was the tank gunner who had the gun sights and the controls to make the turret traverse in front him as well as the firing mechanisms and on the other side of the tank which would be the left side of the tank behind the driver was the loader. That was my position. Officially I was the loader who would shove the ammunition into the breach of the 75mm cannon as well as take care of the 30 caliber machine gun which was a co-actual machine gun with the 75mm gun. In other words the gunner would point this cannon or 75mm gun at a target. Any time he moved it the 75mm went up or down, the machine gun also moved up or down. But it didn’t have the range or the explosive power, naturally, that a big gun did.
KWL: That's three of you.[00:15:35]
RS: there were three of us and the driver who sat down in the... area. All three of these men were in the turret and anytime the turret moved , turret turned around, they were moving around also. The driver sat on the left, same as a driver in the United States automobile sits. He had the controls. There was no steering wheel naturally. He had two sticks you pulled on. You pulled on the right one you turned to the right, you pulled on the left one and you turned to left and... Five speed transmission the same as the configuration of the five speed transmission is the same as a little esten pickup I’ve got at home. The first gear up to the top on the, to the left directly behind it is second gear then third gear, over, fourth gear straight down and fifth gear over and then reverse is directly in back of fifth gear And in order to get the tank into reverse you had to push on a button and put it back and in the tank you couldn’t, if you were driving the when first gear you cannot get enough speed up to go to second gear without stopping. In other words it was ... it didn’t coast of very good, Tanks won’t coast of very good. If you take it out of gear you’re going to stop [ unintelligible]…if you're going 40 miles an hour which they say the tank might do 42 miles an hour, but I don’t think we ever did that. But anyway they don’t coast. I’d save your going 40 miles now are you wouldn’t coast a block. You just take it out of gear it won’t coast a block. Because the way…
KWL: that the transmission...[00:17:44]
RS: yeah
KWL: and the weight[00:17:46]
RS: yes.
KWL: was anybody on your tank able to do is simple maintenance?[00:17:51
RS: oh yes.
KWL: Certain things…[00:17:56]
RS: we were all[unintelligible ] the tanks... we had to change the air breather system .the air cleaners were inside of the compartments where the men sat. They were at the back end of the tank if you were buttoned up buttoned up means all the hatches were closed and your looking out, every one had a periscope to look out of...all the air that engine required came through the compartment into those air cleaners. Dirt... inside the tank became very dirty.
KWL: you wouldn’t want to breath that for too long. With all your hatches closed down[00:18:53]
RS:[unintelligible] when we were in training in Hawaii… we was out there on the volcano rocks and everything and it was just dirty and it would get ground up. you Would be a brown person.
KWL: by the time you were done. So after camp Pendleton how long were you there before you went to next destination for further training.[00:19:18]
RS: We were in camp Pendleton approximately four months I think it was and then I remember we were on liberty up in Los Angeles and for some reason here comes a bunch of the guys that we knew from the camp and says “get out of here we gotta go! Gets out there” and they brought trucks up to take is all back. the marine corps had some rough ride and trucks I’ll tell you they used the international trucks instead of the GM or Chevrolet trucks of the army did. Those things were rough.
KWL: Do you know what year this was by now was its 1944?[00:20:08]
RS: yes it was early 44 by then. Because I went in there November the twentieth before I was ever called to active duty. my time officially started October the twentieth I think it was but I started back to school in the twelfth grade I wasn’t sure how long was going to wait so I started back to school in November I get this funny looking envelope. Big finger pointing at you.
KWL: so after Camp Pendleton was your next destination to Hawaii?[00:20:55]
RS: yes
KWL: for further training?[00:20:59]
RS: Something that people don’t realize is that the ship’s we traveled on, the tanks traveled on were I know most people know what an L.S. T. is a landing ship tank we did not travel on an LS T we traveled on LSM. Landing ship mechanized which were less than half the size of an LST. you could only get four tanks on them and that was all and eight had a flat speed at twelve knots so it took nine days and nine nights to get from San Diego to Hawaii there we stayed and trained for must’ve been approximately six months of course we didn’t leave I know we left Hilo Hawaii 42 days before we landed on Iwojima. But it took a while for them to gather the convoy up and during that period of time when we are gathering the convoy up of all the invasion forces part of it we were on the... we just sat on the opposite side of the island of Awahoo at pearl harbor. It was a small naval base over there that’s where they had the submarine base and I forget what it was called.
KWL: did you have a chance to see the a little bit of the islands? You were down on Hilo you were on the big island.[00:22:50]
RS: oh yeah… yeah… oh yeah, during our training there, on the weekends we would take off and enjoy the countryside may be, and I know there one time we...I don’t recall exactly where it was at but at in relationship to the camp we was living in but there was a nice tropical types valley that we found some little bitty banana trees and the bananas would grow… ripe bananas about 3in. long it was fun and water are coming down and everything as far as a little bitty river it was just interesting.
KWL: a little bit of paradise.[00:23:48]
RS: Yes
KWL: a little bit there. at least it was practically safe.[00:23:500]
RS: We couldn’t bring it back to camp though.
KWL: yeah well… So did you go up did you get to Awahoo at all? You said you were there near pearl harbor when Were there was [unintelligible][00:23:56]
RS: up… not… not at that time. During my travels I figured it out one time that believe it or not I was between 30 and 35,000 miles I traveled on the sea from here to there and back again.
KWL: Well if it takes 42 days to get to Iwojima, you were zigging and zagging your way across.[00:24:26]
RS: yes, one interesting thing that happened to us, just our ship. The island of Truck if they never took. it was a Japanese strongholds they didn’t take it and we were, someone said 400 miles off the coast of its, somehow or another in this LSM we were on, sea water got into the diesel fuel and we sat there and the convoy went bye bye and the next day about daylight here comes a destroyer escort who took us into tow and towed us into the island of Saipan and there we changed ships and one thing I can’t understand: how did we get[unintelligible]... we did. I don’t know whether the convoy waited and fueled up in Saipan and we caught 'em that way or what but I do remember the island of Saipan, it was a very nice looking place as far as we could tell from this port where we put in but on the hill there was a couple fires and they were B29s that didn’t make it back.
KWL: When you’re thinking about being on the ship which wasn’t particularly large if with only four tanks what was life like on that ship.[00:25:56]
RS: there was no…. no ….
KWL: what did you do? [00:26:13]
RS: Have nothing well at tell you what I did I climbed down almost daily because most of the time it was not twelve there were times it was that I would climb down between the two bow doors and the ramp there was an area approximately 6ft. wide and maybe even 4ft. long, it was just a nice cool sea water in it and I'd go down in there and no, I don’t think anyone else did I went down there and get cooled off and everything. of course sea water you know if you’d don’t have fresh water to wash it off we only a got one shower a week because of the little ship didn’t have a very it be a good a system to make fresh water out of sea water. And we had a good laundry service though. we got a rope then you tied you’re clothes to a rope and three of them over at the back and they would be definitely when they dried.
KWL: and a little salty too[00:27:33]
RS: oh yeah
KWL: and soap doesn’t lather well in sea water.[00:27:37]
RS: no it doesn’t.
MW: sounds like you had a lot of time to think.[00:27:42]
RS: Well, the darn thing, it’d go so slow. And the ocean looks the same here as it does 400 miles away.
MW: were you scared or just ready to get there? Or were you ready to do what you had to do?[00:27:57]
RS: yeah and more Less, that was a it if you were told to do something if then you knew that that was your job to do it and we didn’t know where we was going to land at really until I think it was three days before we did ill never forget though the night we pulled up to Iwojima that we saw the flashed is maybe around midnight of the...the guns as they were shooting at the island of the navy you know that I saw they had the IOWA, the Tennessee, and I forget what else they had there but if they sure did have a lot of big boats there you don’t call ...their ships.
KWL: if you have four tanks on the smaller boats...uh..[00:29:04]
RS: know it was a officially a ship. Yeah it was 3ft. longer than requirements needed to be a ship.
KWL: if you have four tanks and that’s twenty men for all of those four tanks and then there were others on board as well[00:29:27]
RS: yes that approximately the same amount of sailors that was the crew of the ship. this little ship had one large diesel engine and I remember looking at it...it reminded me of a locomotive engines if but I figure was a little larger than the locomotive engine I don’t know.
KWL: now while you’re aboard ship now August that we’re trying to figure out what kind of exciting or interesting things you could do to keep yourself entertained but you also had a meals.[00:29:57]
RS: yes
KWL: tell us about what type of food they served what that was like for you.[00:300:06]
RS: it was very good on that little ship they had a little galley. the galley was on the opposite side of the ship from the control tower that ship had a round control tower on the right side I’m not good at port, starboard because I get mixed up sometimes but anyway it had a control tower that was round I’d say that was about 8ft. in diameter and that’s where they controlled the ship from and it’s I’ve been I was on that ship for the 9 days and then the 42 days then we were on a troop ship back from Iwojima to the same tent camp in Hawaii after the island and we then got in after Japan surrendered we were already on the sea when they officially surrendered we landed in Satsuma Japan went for the occupation duties it has all the way from Hawaii to Satsuma Japan which was only a matter of I think around 700 miles further than it was to Iwojima. something like that
KWL: now back to your little ship what was a typical day like before you had your 42 days did you have any responsibilities while you were aboard ship[00:31:48]
RS: oh they would send us out and clean the tank up or things like that but we hadn’t been any way to get it dirty or anything. they had to keep you fresh and everything we didn��t have to do anything as far as military formations or anything like that there was no room for that and
MW: did you guys work out how did you stay fit court did you just [00:32:30]
RS: I don't remember working out I guess we did things to keep... my memory is as good as it should be may be we had no definite jobs to do
MW: so you could read[00:32:53]
RS: oh yeah
MW: write letters... play cards [00:32:58]
RS: At the I know one of the things... we rode the troop ship back from Iwojima to Hawaii a and they put the tanks and build a freighter and only the driver and tank commander went with the tank on the Freighter but they made us get aboard of this troop ship on march the 26th and that was a rough, rough day I’ll tell you. that sea was rough and if those little L.C.V.T ,landing craft vehicle or tank, that they put us in with what gear we had and you had that all your gear with you and climb that rope ladder out of that little boats and that boat was going up and down anywhere from 10 to 15ft. and you’d didn’t want to grab that rope ladder when you was down you better grab that when you were up because of that boat is going to eat you up
KWL: goodness now you mentioned a coming in towards Iwojima and your first impressions about the fire in the distance this is February of 1945 [00:34:24]
RS: This is the morning of February 19, 1945 I’d say it was around midnight I am not sure I didn’t wear a watch back I don't know then we’d seen that flashing and men we got into a mode as far as moving very slowly because the tanks were not to hit the beach until 9:00 AM. the infantry hit at seven and the tanks at nine. Well, it was completely daylight before the infantry got in and we... it was fairly rough that day, the sea was... it... I don’t know... I recall this young I don't know whether he was a lieutenant or I assume he was a lieutenant that was in charge of the navy ship. he got on the PA and announcement and said" men were just going to have a prayer here" and they prayed and they were would you believe our company did not have a fatality the company did not have a fatality .
KWL: the power of prayer [00:36:10]
RS: yeah
KWL: what was playing through your mind as you were waiting to head into that beach what flash through your mind [00:36:13]
RS: Not really we all knew that what was going to be rough and it proved out to be rough and we didn’t get out of the tank for the first, I think it was two days but I’m not sure, and the first morning, the officer was in charge of the platoon. there were four tanks in the platoon. The whole platoon was on this ship. I was in the fourth platoon and the platoon leader was a young lieutenant from Tennessee that was what they call the 90 day wonder and they made a lot of him a college graduate and he drove right straight through the lines at first morning on Iwo and I can recall through the periscope seeing of the Japanese all over his tank and throwing these explosive charges on it and everything and we pulled up right to the back of it and the tank had an escape hatch in the bottom of it we dropped our escape hatch and they dropped theirs and all I can say is that it was awful crowded with ten man in a tank
KWL: So they escaped out of the bottom and they can and they joined yours?[00:38:02]
RS: yep.
KWL: my goodness[00:38:06]
RS: And we took them back to a safe area and they got out and we came back up to the line. the first day all we had... did was go straight across the island and I hesitate to say northeast west or what because I’m not positive. I know is that Seribachi, Mount Seribachi was on our left and we went straight across the islands and then started to more or less turn right and then on each and every day we were proceeding in the opposite direction of mount Seribachi
KWL: where there other tanks in your platoon that stayed with you?[00:38:57]
RS: yes. I think that we all made it through until our operation ceased. we lasted until the sixteenth of march I think it was. someone said it was the sixteenth of months. we ran over yardstick to line that had a 250 lb. bomb mounted to it and they dismantled the right front suspension and that cause shrapnel to go into the were of the assisted driver and or the bow gunner. you ask me a little while ago about the... the people there were two men down below one of the driver and one the bow gunner. his only job was stopped fire 30 caliber machine gun wherever he wanted to that was his job for its something happened to the driver he was to get over and that was no easy chore because the transmission and the differential. they were one big casting and the casting comeback between them it was perhaps two and a half feet this casting was and he had to get over the top of it to the driver as well as if the driver got hurt or anything we had... we then that turret had to get him up. he was able to go through a certain area and from the below section to the turret. you could turn the turret to a certain area and that was opening there and you could get through from the lower area and that’s what is what we had to do if something happened to the driver. I know I and the gunner that was in a tank we would switch positions because more or less monotonous to sit and do the same thing every day. there were days when we would a fire three shells all day long. see, we had a telephone on the back of the tank and infantry would get on this telephone and tell us where to fire and that’s the only thing we did all day. it can be very, very monotonous some days. and the electrical system within the tank... you had to some way keep the batteries charged and we had less spots than other tanks which is the that's over the tank tread... a little generator they called it little Joe and if you’re... it would start by it was an generator starter deal it would start by turning a switch if your batteries were up and if your batteries weren’t up then you had to pull on the rope to get it going and you had to run that as long as the tank there because your radio is on and there were large radios and it took energy to traverse the tank. you had a manual trans... traversing deal with the wheel that you could traverse it manually but we usually used the automatic which was a matter of twisting a handle this where that way to turn it .
KWL: and you had to also fuel your tank how many gallons of gas to do have to go through on a typical day of mission ?[00:43:27]
RS: we had four tanks four tanks four fuel tanks two one either side I forget the amount it was somewhere around hundred gallons altogether but on a normal driving the tank would average three gallons to the miles and this... a lot of our driving was in first or second gear which would be far less than that. it was a 500 horsepower V. eight Ford engine it was.. the engine was designed to be an aircraft engine and when it was an aircraft engine it was a V. twelve and they took off four cylinders of that and it was a twin Magneto engine and then not depending on a generator. it had twins spark plugs and it’s a cylinder had two spark plugs in it...be sure it fired and it was very small engine compared to the power
KWL: so now when you mention that you had a phone in the back and you get communication from the infantry how close did you work with the inventory?[00:44:51]
RS: that was your job. that was your job... the marine court did not fight tank warfare as the army did in Europe. our job, each company of marine tanks was in support of one marine regiment so there were 3…3 companies of tanks in the fifth tank battalion in addition to the headquarters company and there were three regiments of marines on the island of Iwo in the fifth division: the 26th the 27th and the 28th regiment on the Iwojima in the fifth division as well as the fourth division and some of the six a division of that was the marines that was on Iwo. the 28th Marines were the ones that took Seribachi and the ones that raised the flag. C company was their support C company... A picture in that book you have over there you have a picture of Caleb... Cleo was the name on that tank. that was in C company. Each... I forget our tank name but B company's tank the word started with B and C company, C, and naturally A company A. A company had the worst end of it. they were up on the airfield and that was where...I mean they had nothing to hide behind are anything and they had the worst of it. the airfields... the Japanese were starting the third airfield on the far, I’m going to say north end I may be wrong about the ends which way the direction was, but on the large end of the island they were starting the third air field before we landed they had two done. now these air fields that they had done were for fighter aircraft. well when the marines got there and the CDs with them. the CDS made one air field of all of them and the only reason they… they ever decided to take the island of Iwojima was in support of the B29s that had trouble over Japan and a few got hit or something like that is an area for them to land.
The following part from 0:48:09.4 57:09 was considered a break. No relevant or intelligible information is given during these 9 minutes.
KWL: We were talking about your tank on Iwojima And earlier you had also been relating about how you spent the nights you take your tank back to a particular area[00:57:10]
RS: yes
KWL: and then we'll go back and talk a little bit further about the accident not accident but the damage done to your tank when you went over a particular mine. Let’s go back after the first of the second day where did your crew go and spend the nights[00:57:20]
RS: we didn't go anywhere the first night. we just stopped and I’m sure there were plenty of infantry around us but we didn’t go anywhere other than just remain in the tank at the position we held and like I said the first thing in the next morning, they proceeded to go ahead with the combat and then the tank platoon leaders tank became surrounded with the Japanese and they set that tank on fire and the crew got out of that tank and got in our tank and we took them back to a safe area and preceded to come back to the operation and naturally my memory, isn’t clear on everything that happened and when it happened at all, I know that we did get hit one day with some sort of a round in the front but it did little damage to the tank. the day I member I’d say perhaps on the second week we were there waiting to ....along the stream to hold the whole line the whole company was. we were waiting to go to a certain area and for some reason all the officers got out of the tank and we parked them and I was on radio watch and had the hatch open standing in the hatch, tank commanders hatch and I watched these bursts come down the line towards our tank. they wasn’t hitting the tanks it was trying to more than likely it was mortars Japanese mortars and one of them hit right beside the tank and the concussion made me go over to the side I got out and looked all over and we had these wood plaid... would planks on the side of the tank that were not attached directly to the side but held off by 1in. angle iron so that they... if high explosive shells hit the wood it would just explode and bust the wood up well anyway I looked at that wood and there was a lot of shrapnel in it and I thought "HMM lucked out that time ."
KWL: well you mentioned just in casual conversation that you had found a barge depression in the ground we could back the tanks into[01:00:54]
RS: no we were on the rim of that. this area was called the sulfur blow hole and there were caves down in that hole and one day I don’t know whether it was early in the morning or after we had got back to captain, his name was captain Sams, he jumped up on that tank and said "Swartsell get, traverse around to that opening there and put white phosphorus in there." you know white phosphorus burns at a very high degree of heat and it’s bad news so I did about I’d say 10, 20 minutes some Japanese nisi now they were native Americans but Japanese they were in the marine corps came up with their blow horns and started talking Japanese down with their blow horns and three or four scraggly looking fellows came out of that cave and I thought " Boy oh boy were fighting them." its just, its pathetic sometimes it was and they're on Iwojima they... I didn't ever see it but they had, I’d seen pictures of it where they were jumping off the end of the island and committing Hari-kari. just jumping off the end of the island because they thought they wasn't gonna be killed by the Americans. the Japanese were indoctrinated to the point they would kill them if the Americans would kill them they took in several prisoners with 1% I guess was what someone told me of the island that the Japanese that were on the island at the time we landed only 1% did they get to surrender .
KWL: So any particular anecdotes oh don’t we need to cover the particular lieutenant we mentioned was hitting that with a yard stick line. You want to tell us a little more about that? The effect on your crew?[01:03:08]
RS: well, the��� the gentlemen that was there beside me that I mentioned. I went to his funeral on July the fifth 9… 19…2006. I went to his funeral and he was the bow gunner or assistant driver and he stayed in the after that explosion, we sled him down the seven dig, we got him up in the turret and we slid him down the 75 mm gun and I didn’t see him again until 1984 in the reunion down in …oh…. Isn't that awful Texas, anyway, I wont... I get choked up every time I talked about it, but any way he was in the veterans hospital in Seattle Washington for a year in a half someone told me, before he got to the point where he could walk good. But this... the answer that at the reunion down in, I forget the name of that town I was down just there two years ago the same one that we was at Abalone, we were in Abalone in 1984, I was talking to someone of the company man I said I understand Berse passed away because he had bone disease from that wound that he got and I looked at the third floor railing and there he stood.
MW: was he the only one injured dad?[01:05:25]
RS: yes
MW: you know you’ve had a[01:05:29]
RS: well you see I was gunning that day and Unger... I don’t know whether that shows much or not but Unger when that when off , Unger was behind me and he jumped out of that tank so fast I said” where in the devil are you going. I can still traverse" I thought it was a gun that hit us, I was looking through the side of the gun and traversing around, trying to find a gun but see, Unger had put his time in[ unintelligible] he was at the island of Tarawa and he was getting out of there because... I understand why. there were huge rounds of explosive in there and it had already happened to one of the A company tanks... blew the turret about twenty feet.
KWL: so you took a lot risk obviously being in these tanks[01:06:48]
RS: oh yeah
KWL: how long were you on Iwojima you were sent elsewhere we have about four minutes left on this tape[01:06:53]
RS: I was on Iwojima, we landed on February the nineteen and I left on march the twenty sixth, the odd part about it was that prior to us getting off the ship they had had a meeting and said "this is approximately a seventy two hour operation" and the marine corps arrived in seventy two hours
The section from01:07:37 to 1:08:44 is about switching tapes.
KWL: would like to tell us more about your tank the sleeping arrangements since you haven’t.[01:08:46]
RS: well yes, we backed the tank over the same area each and every night so we would have to dig out every night so we would just back it over. one of the good things I remember though, the noises that happens throughout the night. I don’t know whether you’ve ever heard a sand crab go... we had over us our ponchos which were rubber coated cloth the poncho it was actually a shelter half do you remember seeing those, well we had those over us and the sand crab would go * crab noises* across this.
MW: so you were under the tank then?[01:09:35]
RS: yes but the sand crab... there was lots of sand there... ground up volcanic rock, and one interesting thing was when we get a C ration we didn't get two many C rations. the C ration you had a can meat or vegetable soup or something like that. one of the K rations you’ve got these crackers and hard like hard raisins that you would eat and things like that and a package of three or four cigarettes and I was always popular because I didn’t smoke and had a lot of friends. I mentioned about the C rations but on the Iwojima if you wanted to warm your C ration up you go down there to the beach a little ways and you'd be able to dig your self a hole in the sand and put your C ration in it stay about a half an hour, you've got hot food. Of course it was not hot it was warm but you'd stand there on the beach and you’d be able to work your feet around and you would start to sink down and start getting warm on your feet. there was that much heat in the island yet.
KWL: One question I usually like to ask for anyone who served in the Pacific: what was the weather like for you can you tell me a little bit about that and have an affected your being there on the island and in it the tank as well [01:11:13]
RS: You know we never did have any real bad weather ... we had a couple days where there was a light shower you know it might have rained for a matter of three or four hours and that was it. I got, I remember one night it got pretty cold there under the tank and they...some where they got some brandy I don’t know they give us a shot of brandy. that’ll make you sleep
KWL: What kind of temperature during the day you had all this black sand which can absorbs heat and also had the heat in it how hot was it[01:12:05]
RS: well in February see we was there in February, I never I don't remember ever really getting very hot. after we got knocked out I know that a couple, three of us decided well heck lets go on up towards the front and we walked up there and we found a BAR that had been discarded, you know what a BAR is and, I don’t know, it just we were doing something because we didn’t have anything else to do and they put us to work though sometimes making napalm. You know napalm there was a matter of getting the 50 gallon drum of aviation gasoline and to put the detergent, ground up detergent in it and get a canoe paddle and stir it up , stir it up, stir it up and pretty soon it became jelly and they had a flame tank, that's one of the tanks they had of Headquarters company was a flame tank and we went to school on the flame tank too. The flame tank, they didn’t have any ammunition like the 75mm. In those they had in the right hand sponsan they had three large gas tanks, I mean gas not as gasoline but gas as in CO2 and the napalm in the tank was held underneath the turret deck where the if it were a75mm weapon on there, there would be ammunition. underneath that turret deck there was a large canister of napalm and the CO2 gas propelled the napalm out the 75mm gun and they had a big sparkplug in the end of it that as soon as they started propelling it out they would trip the trigger on the sparkplug and it became a fire and it would shoot for hundred yards
KWL: nasty weapon [01:15:06]
RS: there are pictures in existence of the Japanese suffering of that
KWL: after you've left it would seem a you mentioned that you went back to it the other destination and eventually be heading towards the occupation of Japan[01:15:16]
RS: we went back to Hawaii to the very same base and we left prior to while we were in tank training in Hawaii and started training again. of course we got another tank and new crewmen and start training for the invasion of Japan. Well, after the Japanese after the atomic bomb was dropped the Japanese surrendered. we were on the sea to land in Japan and we landed exactly where we were going to land had we invaded. we had a round in the chamber in case things didn’t work out and someone said we was 500 miles off the [Missouri?] whenever they signed the treaty I don’t know
KWL: Where did you land in Japan?[01:16:25]
RS: Sasabo, Japan on the island of Kyushu and we remained their for quite some time. I’d say about three or four months later after we landed there, one night they got us all on a LST not our tanks just us as personnel and some jeeps and things like that and took us two Nagasaki and made us marine corps MPs wandering around in Nagasaki. it had to be in I don’t know some around two months after day drop the atomic bomb and we didn’t know anything about the Geiger counter or anything like that and to this day as far as I know the marine corps said we were there one day. I don’t know I know that there was a lady up in Monon, Indiana that is a widow who claims her husband died of cancer because he was there in Nagasaki, I don't know... never even met her. They had a daughter and law and son and kids and everything like that meeting over in Terra Haute.
KWL: what was you impression of Nagasaki when you first saw it because you heard about the bomb?[01:18:05]
RS: Rubble, just a rubble. I went through Hiroshima on a train. I saw it too. when I shipped over from the reserve all young people that joined marine corps in 1943 as I did joined the marine corps reserve actually and when I signed over for two more years and in Sasabo, Japan I became a regular marine. So, I’d don’t know why they did it the way they did it, but I was regular then until the time I got discharged.
KWL: You mentioned that the Japanese, even on Iwojima, had been told they would be mistreated they would be[01:19:01]
RS: oh yeah
KWL: killed by the Americans[01:19:07]
RS: that’s what they believed. they believed that the Americans would kill them for reasons they...they... a large quantity of them didn't commit suicide. I don’t know how many. I didn’t see it happen that I’ve seen pictures of it.
KWL: that now on an Kyushu when you were doing and MP duty and even on Nagasaki did you have any interaction or chance to meet with some of the Japanese populace[01:19:25]
RS: yes yes part of it...one time we were, I don’t know how long it was after we landed, we got sent into the little communities of bepu and owetta and they were resort communities prior to the war and I remember going into this I don’t know most of been the City Hall was one time and bear was some Japanese elderly gentleman there who was educated in a Harvard and he could talk as good as English as I could. I don’t know his age but he was I'd say he was in the 60 to 70 year age range but he was a nice, nice talking fella
KWL: how long did you stay in Japan before you came back stateside?[01:20:32]
RS: I'm not positive how long it was but [unintelligible]we were in the second division after oh... you’ve got the dates on those discharges over there. but anyway when we got sent back it had to be a one to say late 1946 when we came back. we got aboard the troop ship the golden hind, H- I-N-D. The golden hind was the name of it and we got within sight of the California coast and turned right, went through the Panama canal and we actually after that we went to head liberty in Sanjuan, Puerto Rico and went on, preceded to the Norfolk, Virginia and from there we put on trucks and were trucked to camp Lejeune, Californ.., camp Lejune, North Carolina and that was the camp I was at during the remainder of my Marine corps meals. I sent another trip on the sea again after that. Early spring of 1947, we went on maneuvers in Saint Martinique which isn't very far from the south American...maybe central America I'm not sure but its in the island group they had trouble with. the marine corps had to go down there and invade and save some people and I forget on that hill. perhaps in, I don't know what year it was, but the marine corps didn't land down there in that group, at another island but I just remember on that... that was another that had something that happened to me. We was on maneuvers and I was left on radio watch one day and heard this one guy coming on the radio and talking about tanks so and so and everything and I got on and said "where are you sir?" and he said, "I'm in fort Knox, Kentucky." and some reason there were sun spots on that day and the radio transmission went through from fort Knox to that island on our tank that was the first frequency modulated radios that were available. those tanks had frequency modulated radios in it. we actually had two different radios. I forget why but we do.
KWL: how long were you down there before you went black to camp Lejeune?[01:24:18]
RS: oh it was just a week I think it was. I know we tore up a lot of cane fields.
KWL: after camp Lejeune you turn back to Indiana is that right?[01:24:32]
RS: yes
KWL: would tell me a little more about what she did it after you got out of the service[01:24:38]
RS: I became an auto Mechanic. I worked at a shell station in Richmond Indiana at the corner of north sixth and eighth street and worked on automobiles for maybe a six month period and then some fellow that ran a delivery out of a furniture store got talkin to me and talked me into coming to the furniture store and I became a serviceman on washers and dryers and delivering furniture and one thing and I did that until 1957 until I moved to Indianapolis
KWL: you mentioned that you were in the printing business[01:25:30]
RS: I worked for... my first job in Indianapolis was working at the crescent paper company which is... was then now where the superdome or RCA dome and then after I left that I went to work at Book Walton company. that was a Franklin road and 30th street and stayed there five and a half years and then I worked for about a year for a company in Chicago traveling and working on bindery, and printing equipment, and paper cutters and then on I worked for the [unintelligible] company, servicing and printing equipment and moving it. I got as far as away as Mexico City on job worked several times out in Danfur area and fort Wayne was a very prominent area and worked in Michigan for six week period of time , moving a large company from Anarbor Michigan to Chelsea, Michigan and I worked here in Indianapolis at several different places.
KWL: now once you left the military too, you had family back home in Richmond and obviously your going to have family here and you got married[01:27:10]
RS: Well I hesitate to go into all my...,
KWL: that's fine.[01:27:22]
RS: my...
MW: There's one thing that I'm wanting to, and you don't have to talk about this certainly if you don't want to but I seem to remember, is it D-Day every year or Memorial Day I don't know, mom would say you would get emotional or[01:27:24]
RS: It was coming up... February
MW: And it's just because of [01:27:45]
RS: Yeah
MW: what makes you that emotional. is it just everything you went through does it all just come back?[01:27:47]
RS: February the nineteenth which if you get emotional here on February 19, your a day late.
KWL: That's right. International date line.[01:28:01]
RS: it happened over there February the nineteenth.
MW: ok
KWL: it was the eighteenth here.
RS: yeah.... yeah I crossed that date line four times all together.
KWL: when you were away from home on the Pacific how would you keep in touch with your family [01:28:19]
RS: I would right mother was the only person I ever wrote. when we got sent to the island of Hawaii to train for the invasion of Japan, I told her, I said we were on a real nice Island," and described it. You couldn't tell other people where you were at. She knew where it was at.
KWL: Course you had a while of time there in Hawaii, one question I haven't asked you is with entertainers. sometimes they had USO troops. did you ever have a chance to have some of this entertainment.[01:28:55]
RS: Oh yes: bob Crosby, brother of Ben Crosby, had a band there and we’d go down and watch them rehearse when we weren't busy and then they would have a show there and don't how frequently the show was but they would have a show there and it was in mind of the old country deals at the county fair and it was something of a entertaining and every night they would always have a movie at this same area
KWL: I know that that is an important things to put into letters. They'd say" I just saw this movie with so and so."[01:29:48]
RS: well, that’s one thing on the small boats that we were on or ships that had ... on the LSM we never had any movies. it was... they didn’t have those facilities, troop ships they did
KWL: is there anything else that we didn’t touch base on to have any ideas[01:30:18
RS: Well, I became, I Was a marine from 1954 to 1957 but very occasionally. I was supposed to go to monthly meetings, that the funny part about that was when I joined them... the reserve marine reserve I did it for the purpose of requesting active duty. this was after the Korean conflicts and I didn’t have a very good job and wasn’t making much but some offspring that got hungry once in while and I wanted a better job but it ever panned out and they... I joined... I was just living just across the Ohio line into Ohio and I only had 35 miles to the to monthly meetings and... well, they found out when I moved back across to in to Indiana I was a Hoosier and so I had to go to Indianapolis which was a matter of 72 miles and for the money I was getting it was a losing proposition for driving the car and everything. 72 miles one way 72 miles back and a day lost so I did not go but my discharge said I was in...course its conflict hadn't taken place. During that time they have called me up.
KWL: but you missed the Korean war[01:32:10]
RS: yes
KWL: so you were fortunate[01:32:13]
RS: When I... they tried their best to get me to reenlist in 1947. this caption told me "you’ve already been approved for staff rating and you'd make a good, make a good platoon sergeant," and all this and that. Captain Nelson, I remember him. But I always figured if I had done it, I would have been pushing up daisies in Korea
MW: I just On to let you didn't I just I know you’re a proud American and I just wonder now a few how your whole experience of marine you’re still very much marine you’ve them that I did to the mentality and will never go away and how would you describe being a marine what it means to you. [01:32:58]
RS: that's a difficult thing to answer...you know, you are instilled with a certain thing when you become a marine and you don't ever forget that. You know I couldn’t treat people they way people are treated today and some occasions but... I mean, since I’ve been in the marine corps, I don't know, it gives you something to look forward to and you want to take more civic pride than the majority of the people do in this day. you know I have encountered times before. in fact I talked to a man at war gun on his hip at one time recently. I said "sir you make me ashamed of ever fighting for this country." he was a park ranger and he had traffic stopped there on Emerson avenue where the crosswalk goes there for the people running in this deal. I didn't know he had the traffic stopped for... because they had runners there and I tried to drive around him and he got hostile with me and I got hostile back and I told him, I said "You make me sorry that I ever fought for this country the way you are." you know he’s a park ranger, he's stopping traffic. What's he doing it for? you don’t... if the man had just said "Well, we got runners coming here" and it was ten minutes before the first runner ever showed.
MW: I think with you I remember growing up a lot, Respect was key and I think that if someone didn't show you that respect either as an elder or a veteran you your quick to get, for lack of better word, hostile.[01:35:29]
RS: yeah.
MW: and I think a lot of that comes from this hardcore marine that you were, well and still are, actually. you take little or nothing from anyone, so...[01:32:50]
RS: You know the picture you've seen over there of that... those fellows at that last reunion, three of those guys are blind> I mean one of them isn't blind enough. He can still drive in daylight but he cant drive after dark and he hosted that. he was a police lieutenant indicator Illinois until he retired from the police department and the became a part time worker in the city courts as a... I don't know what they call him. they've always got a guy up in uniform standing up there by the judge and that’s what he was
KWL: Bailiff[01:36:55]
MW: Bailiff[01:36:55]
RS: Bailiff...yeah...O.K. that’s what he was and that that’s what a lot of the fellows are now.
KWL: You've been tough , Dad, you've been through a lot. You are by far the strongest man I personally know and I'm just curios to know, this is my last the question, how do you feel about the marines that are serving today, the marines are fighting for our country today as compared to you and the marines of you day[01:37:09]
RS: I don't think there is too much difference in it other than the fact that I'd... just like I said at that reunion we had in 2002 talking to a newspaper reporter up there in Masuva, Montana and this is when bush said "we’re going in" I said to that reporter I said "I don’t think he's gonna do the right thing by going in there. I think he should wait." Well, I don’t think still to this day, I don't think he was doing the right thing going in there. They never did find those weapons of mass destruction and what have they gained by it? they've gained a heck of a lot of debt. that is amazing to me how they can pay that kind of money to those contractors that are over there illegally, according to a lot of people, what they’re doing they're working for a large company that’s over there charge and all kind of money to do the same thing that the army is doing and I don't understand.
KWL if you could say something to those marines over there if they even have a chance to read these books...[01:38:49]
RS: they have to do what they're told to do the same as I did. they have to do things are told to do but it's up to the hierarchy of this country to see that that thing is abolished as quick as possible. I mean, that... to began with I don’t ever think make Iraq one country. They have three divisions of people there. if you’ve had any history of that area, what year was it that they made it a one country deal that Iraq used to be three countries, three separate countries and they made it one country and once Saddam became the dictator of it, why, the people didn’t have any choice but they... you're not going to make those people one people in a short period of time.
MW: you would do it all over again would you not ?[01:40:07]
RS: yeah I tried to in 1954 .
KWL: thank you very much[01:40:16]
RS: you're welcome.
