Interview with Mr. Neal T. Cobb
[Born 06/06/24]
Interviewed by [Tanner Dunn and Julia Dunn]
Recorded on 10/11/2006 & 10/18/2006 by [Tanner Dunn]
Transcribed on 11/11/2006-11/26/2006 by [Tanner Dunn]
[Interview starts at 004 on counter]
Tanner Dunn: Today is Wednesday, October 11th, 2006. I am Tanner Dunn and I am interviewing Mr. Neal Cobb in his home at 8140 Township Line Road in Indianapolis, Indiana. Mr. Cobb is a new acquaintance to me. Mr. Cobb is 82 years old and was born on June 6th, 1924.
Neal Cobb: You’re supposed to say now he doesn't look like he’s 82.
TD: Mr. Cobb served in World War II. Mr. Cobb was in the 15th Air Force and ended his service as a First Lieutenant. I am here with my Mom and I’m going to ask you some questions.
NC: That will be fine.
Tanner Dunn: Mr. Cobb, where were you born and raised?
Neal Cobb: Where was I born? Whiting, Indiana, that’s in Lake County up in- you know where that is don’t you?
TD: Did you have any brothers or sisters?
NC: I’ve got two brothers, one older who’s 85 and me who’s 82 and my kid brother who’s 79.
TD: What did your parents do?
NC: My Dad worked for Sinclair Oil Refining. My Mother was a housewife.
TD: You told me that you enlisted right after you turned 18; why did you enlist?
[029]
NC: Two days after.
TD: Two days after, why did you enlist?
NC: Why did I enlist? ‘Cause we were at war and I had no choice as far as my own self was concerned. I wanted to enlist. If I could have gotten in the air corp when I was younger I would have gone in younger, but Roy, my older brother, was in college and had been there about three years and he finished up a semester, and he enlisted in the marines. My kid brother, who finally came along, enlisted in the navy.
TD: Why did you pick the service branch that you joined?
NC: Why did I pick the Air Corps? ‘Cause I wanted to be a flyer really. I wanted to be a pilot.
TD: Do you remember how your first days in service felt like?
NC: Oh sure, I remember very well, but it was no big deal. There were 496 of us on the train from Columbus, Ohio down to San Antonio, Texas. It was about a four day trip. And you know, we were all like myself, some were older none any younger, but there were a lot of other 18- year olds there, and we were eager to get started.
TD: Tell me about your boot camp experience and how did you get through it?
NC: It really wasn’t a boot camp as such. I was an aviation cadet and we were treated a little bit differently than maybe the rest of the guys ‘cause we , most of us, at least wanted to go through different schools and become officers see. We were very, it was very much… I’m trying to come up with the right word on this. It was spelled out every day every one of our moments or movements for the day were all spelled out. __+ Like we’d go to breakfast at five after six not six after or four after, at six after or whatever, and when we went out of the barracks we went out at a run. We never walked around a corner like that, it was square every corner you took was square and if you didn’t you got points against you, demerits. It was sort of like in a military school rather than actually being in the army. I didn’t feel any different, I was supposed to be there and I was doing what I was supposed to be doing. It was a pretty good marriage really. Every day was about like the same, you know you did this and this and this your whole day was spelled out you knew what you were gonna be doing it and when you were gonna be doing it.
TD: Where exactly did you go?
[081]
NC: I started out at San Antonio it was called the SAACC, San Antonio Aviation Cadet Center. And lots and lots of people went through there.
TD: What was your job assignment?
NC: No jobs we just went to school.
TD: I know your rank changed, tell me how that works?
NC: Well, I was an Aviation Cadet for all that time until I got my wings and that was in December of ‘43. I graduated from bombardier school and got my wings, which you see right over there those are the ones I got. Yes that’s the bombardier. In the mean time of course, you know, other things happened. For some reason they decided I was going to be a bombardier. I don’t know why. Every test I took I did real good and all that. Anyway, among other things they decided I should go to gunnery school, too, and those are my gunneries wings down there below. I guess they figured if I flunked out of bombardier school then I could go and become a gunner so, anyway, I also have my gunners wings but it was all school, school, school, school until December 3rd of ‘43 that’s when I graduated from bombardier school and got my wings as a bombardier and my little gold bars are second Lieutenant, now that isn’t a gold bar that’s a silver bar because I eventually got a promotion to First Lieutenant.
TD: Could you tell me a couple of your most memorable experiences?
NC: That comes a little bit later, you can ask me now, but it comes later after I was over in combat.
TD: Did you have to see many casualties?
[120]
NC: Casualties you said? Oh my God yes__ quite a few. I shouldn’t answer you like that. In my group over there, which was sixty crews and sixty airplanes and the squadron, that was our group, the squadron was 4 squadrons in the air, so the squadron I was in 778. We had fifteen crews and fifteen planes and we were in combat for thirteen months, and in that thirteen months my group lost 138 airplanes. Now each airplane had ten guys in it so you figure that out. Anyway, that’s a B-24. They were called Liberators, B-24 Liberators. Now you should know these things. As a boy, he should really be interested in things like that. But you’ve never seen even a model of that? Never heard it called a Liberator? Okay, it’s a ten man crew. The pilot and the co-pilot are sitting right up here. The pilot is here and the co-pilot is right here. Okay. Then right here, here’s the nose gunner right here. Right down here is me. Right in front see. Then, the engineer always took over the top turrets. They weren’t __ this guy wasn’t in here all the time. These other guys were in their turrets all the time. Can you see the ball turret underneath here? He was in there. He was the littlest guy in the crew. I couldn’t fit in myself, see, so I never had to take over. Anyway, then in the back there is the tail gunner and then do you see the little windows right there on either side? There was a fifty caliber machine gun mounted on each side. So we had two guns here, two here, two there, two underneath there so that’s eight and then we had one on each side so we had ten fifty caliber machine guns and that cuts a lot of fire power. Let me think what else you ought to know about this. Oh, there’s a little tunnel that goes under, through, underneath the flight deck. We call this the flight deck. You see these little marks there on the side? Those are the Bombay doors. Right here you will see where there’s an escape hatch there, that’s where the nose wheel comes down and you open those doors and it’s just marked on there. Then, you can’t see it, but right back here on the floor of the plane is a, it’s probably about that square and that’s the escape hatch in the ____+ waist of the plane and that’s where I finally went out. ___+ Oh, when I went to gunnery school, you know, I’d learned all these turrets, except the ball turret and I ask them why they put me there, ‘cause I’d wanted to become a pilot, they said I don’t know, your scoring on all your tests and all that, we decided you should be a bombardier. Anyway, that’s the reason I became a bombardier.
Let’s see, I was nineteen years old when I got my commission.
JD: What does that mean to get a commission?
NC: Oh shoot, that means you’re an officer see and then you know, I was only nineteen years old which was a little bit ___+ and they called me the kid see. They didn’t do that, the gunners didn’t do that when there was anybody else around, just when we were just by ourselves they’d call me the kid ‘cause I was the kid. [190-201 Mr. Cobb asked interviewer questions about D-Day, school work, grades and geography.] On D- Day, which was June 6th, that happens to be my 20th birthday. ___+they say “when’s your birthday?” I say,” it’s on D-Day”. They don’t have any idea when D-Day is, but now you’ll remember won’t you?....But, anyway, D-Day was the day we invaded the European continents and we lost a lot of guys that day but that’s what started the end of the war, was D-Day. As I say, it was my twentieth birthday and also we had been flying missions down out of Italy and on June 5th my navigator and I were both sick at our stomachs, probably some bad food or something. So we went to the dispensary there and they took us off flying status and of course we had no idea that the D- Day was coming on. They really kept that a pretty good secret, at least from their own troops, but any way so we went to the dispensary and they took us off flying status for the next day June 6th and we didn’t realize how good that news was, but anyway there was a brand new crew that had just come over to take the place you know, __+ they were a replacement crew. When you consider the number of crews that were lost they had to have a pretty good turn around all the time. Anyway, they took the bombardier and navigator from that crew and put them in our place for the mission on June 6th, and they got shot down over Ploiesti. [Mr. Cobb sent us to look at picture of missions over Ploiesti.]… Well, anyway, they got shot down on that and then we, of course, right away joined their crew and it was seven missions later that we got shot down. You know, you always figured you were going to get it. There was no… anybody figured that they were gonna get out without getting shot down. That’s just you know, ___ and I’m going be showing you some pictures later and you wonder how could you stand it. Well, you know, these guys were unlucky and we were lucky and that’s the way we felt see. You go ahead and ask me some questions now. I think that’s the best way.
TD: You mentioned that you’re stomach was upset, so what was the food like?
NC: Oh, food wasn’t bad, really. It was… they had what they called K- rations, which were little packages of food which we used. They’d give us one of those every time we took off on a mission see and those would be little cans. Do you know what papset is? Do you remember that? Well that’s cheese, you know. It’s a little round cheese like that and that’s what it was, papset and I haven’t heard it since the war. It was either that or it would be a beef type like spam, maybe not quite but similar to that and then there was also, there was three of them, oh like ham and eggs in a little can see and that’s what we’d take with us and sometimes a mission would be ten hours long. The longest one we ever flew was about thirteen and a half hours and the guys didn’t like them to much but I, up front, I had a little warming thing for my bomb site to keep it warm and I would stick my D,or my K- ration or C- ration down in there and it’d be warm, so it wouldn’t be so bad. Let’s see I’m just trying to think of some other things. Just go ahead and ask me some more.
TD: Were you able to keep in touch with your family?
NC: Well, yeah, I’d write them letters, but that was the only way and there was a long time. You’d write the letter and it’d be many, many days before they’d get it, but it wasn’t too bad. But we had no idea. There was no… we couldn’t talk to anybody on the phone or anything else, there was no other way. You just wrote letters and after it we’d been over there long enough we started getting some letters from home and they’d always be written quite a few days, you know, before hand but yes, so we did keep in touch with them. I wrote just about every day and my folks said that they knew something was wrong because they hadn’t gotten anything from me see, and the next thing you know, let’s see, I’ll show you, it’s in here, it’s a telegram where my folks got the telegram saying that I’m missing in action. [278-281 Mr. Cobb asks the interviewer about his name and jokes about teasing.] Look at that telegram. (12 seconds silence as look at telegram) My mother’s hair turned white while I was gone. [285-300 Mr. Cobb talked about articles and pictures from scrapbook.]
TD: When you got shot down what happened?
[300]
NC: On that particular day we were up over Blechhammer, Germany, which was a synthetic oil operation, they were making synthetic oil. ___+ we had what we call the IP, which was the initial point. When you get to the initial point that’s where the formation turns which ever way they’re supposed to turn and then we fly straight and level from the IP to where we drop the bombs. The Germans got pretty wise, and they would-we call it a box of flak, they would throw up a continuous barrage of 88 millimeters, or whatever , 105’s usually 88’s and they’d throw that box of flak up, right in your path, and they’d knew that you were going to go through it because that was, you know, from our IP. You had to go in at the same altitude, the same airspeed, the same course. You had to do that in order to drop your bombs accurately see, and we called each day we went through hell, it was going through the box of flak was our, that was the hell we went through. It wasn’t any fun, but um scared to death. Now, let’s go ahead.
TD: Were you a Prisoner of War?
NC: Yes
TD: What was that like?
[321]
NC: That’s a pretty difficult question to answer. [325-329 Mr. Cobb talks to interviewer about how some questions are difficult questions to answer.] So anyway, when we got in there and… I had just gotten my bombs dropped and I turned around to get my parachute. There was a navigator table, see these windows right here and here (on the B-24 model) right back under there is the navigation table and that’s where I kept my chute. You couldn’t have your chute on when you were over the bomb site. It was a chest chute so you had the harness on so all you had to do was clip it on. You had to crawl through a tunnel to get to the back of the plane and so you had to push your parachute through the tunnel ahead of you. So we got hit and I just stood up and turned around and boom, another big shell hit us, and a piece of it hit me in the leg, and another one in the hand here, and the navigation table was just a bunch of splinters, all beat up, but they did not touch my parachute. You know why? I don’t know, but, any way there was my beautiful parachute, just sitting there, so any way I put it on right away, and then I forgot about I had a piece of flak in my left leg and my hand had a pretty good size cut, but I forgot about it nearly, you had so many things on your mind. We lost one engine, number two, and there were four engines of course, and when we lost that one engine we had to pull out of formation cause three engines cant keep up with four you know, so we pulled out of formation and the pilot told me to get on back to the tail because the tail gunner had been shot pretty bad. Matter of fact, he’s still alive bless his soul. He and I are the only ones. He’s 92 years old and he calls me about every two weeks; he’s worried about me. Anyway, Johnny, a little Italian boy, was shot up, his leg got shot up pretty bad, so I went back to take care of him and see what I could do, his leg was really bleeding so I put a tourniquet on it, and every one of our parachute harnesses had a first aid kit and included in that first aid kit was a morphine syringe. So I got the morphine syringe and stuck it in his leg and gave him some relief, see and then I got him out, so I had to take over his turret, cause I was utility gunner. Now a lot of crews didn’t have that advantage of having a qualified gunner. ‘Cause then the fighters jumped us and knocked out three more, or two more engines so meantime we were going down, down, down. And the pilot gave us the order to bail out and anyway as the officer in the waist of the plane, it was up to me to make sure everybody got out see. So everybody got out and we took Johnny and threw him out and had his hand on the rip cord and threw him out. Then everybody else went out except Parker and myself. There were other guys, the other 4 guys were up front and I have no idea what happened up there but anyway everybody went out except Parker and myself and I told Parker to go ahead and he said, “I’m not going to go.” And it wasn’t that calm, I’m sure of that, but I wasn’t going to argue because by that time things were pretty big on the ground and he said, “I’m not gonna go.” And I said, “Alright.” And I took about two or three steps. I turned around and went to the square thing in the floor, and went out feet first and, it’s the wrong way, when you bail out of the plane you’re supposed to get down on your knees and tumble out ‘cause other wise if you go out to high the parachute might get caught on the tail of the plane. So, anyway they tell you…I jumped feet first, and that’s wrong because I could have caught my chin, broken my neck, you know and all that kind of stuff. They tell you to count to ten and I got to three and thought God that’s enough, and pulled my rip cord and, you know, silly things I’d often wondered what… Oh, and you know, I’m scared to death of heights. I can’t dive off a diving board. I can’t do any of those things like that, I can’t do that but I used to worry about whether I’d be able to jump, when the time came I went. I didn’t even think about it. Anyway it was like a, when I pulled my rip cord it was just like a magician pulling a handkerchief out of my chest ‘cause that’s where the whole thing was see and there was this silk handkerchief coming out and I’d often wondered what a parachute would look like up above you as you’re floating down. Well, when I jumped out, I jumped like that and the plane was coming like this see, (Mr. Cobb motions with his hands) so I was facing like that and it was coming down like that and I just started, when my parachute opened, it was quite a jolt you know and I knew the chute was open and I just started to look up and I hit the ground, just like that and I did about two, three or four backward summersaults and there I was. Church bells ringing, people shouting. I got some things I’ll show you later pictures of where I was where I landed. But it was about quarter of a mile to the woods, I knew I couldn’t get to the woods so I just pulled the parachute up underneath me sort of, to hide it, so they wouldn’t be able to find it. I knew that they weren’t speaking German and it just sounded like they, the town I was raised in there were a lot of Slovaks and I thought that’s what they were speaking, but I just stayed there and I was in an oat field, and they got about 30 feet away from me and I just stood up with my hands up and I had no gun, even if I’d had a gun, I had a gun with me, but it was still in the plane. Matter of fact when the plane crashed, I saw the explosion. I didn’t see the plane, but I saw the explosion. It was only about two blocks from where I went down and so they told me to go ahead and put my hands down and they took me down the hill, there was a little village there. I was just there over a year ago at the little village and___+ they rang the church bells for me again. I got some pictures I can show you where we landed. Anyway, they took me down the hillside. One of my gunners, ___+ isn’t that terrible, I can’t even think of his last name, he was the engineer on the plane, but anyway they already had him and he was down there sitting in a bus, like a school bus you know. Pretty soon they had all of us with the exception of Johnny, the tail gunner, and they had taken him to this hospital in Trenchin. Long story there too, but anyway, then they took us to the town of Trenchen and they had some military people there. They interviewed us and interrogated us whatever, and they were amazed that we were as young we were. The propaganda that the Germans had put out there said we were all convicts and they had taken us out of the prisons over in America to fly these missions ‘cause otherwise nobody would fly the missions. Those people over there, a very simple people, they believed that. Can you imagine that? But they were so amazed that we were as young as we were. I had just turned twenty about a month before you know, and you’re an officer? That’s very important to them, is rank. In prison, officers have these kind of quarters which are a little bit better than, you know, some of the other ranks. Let’s see, are you familiar with ranks? Like sergeants, and tech sergeants and staff sergeants and all that kind of stuff?
JD: No, I thought there was probably just like, sergeant. I didn’t know tech sergeant and staff sergeant.
NC: Let’s see, a Master Sergeant is the highest ranking sergeant. He’s got three stripes up above and three stripes below, so six stripes. A Tech Sergeant has got three up here and two down here. Staff Sergeants’ got three up here and one down here. The Sergeants’ got just the three up here.
JD: Oh, okay.
NC: Oh yes, and that was important to them see. So as a result of that most of our guys or our enlisted men had, I think Staff Sergeant was the lowest rank we had, ‘cause if we were ever shot down and became prisoners they were given better treatment. So, let’s see where are we now?
[Tape stopped briefly after next question concerning going on leave not relevant and interviewer and interviewee resumed discussion of previous question regarding experiences as a Prisoner of War]
[439]
NC: Anyway when I crashed, there were four boys killed and here’s where they were buried in a common grave. (Mr. Cobb shows a picture.) That’s in the little village where we crashed. Now they’re not there anymore. See, here’s their names, four of them. Believe it or not, you know, how’d you get those pictures they’d say. Well, they were just there. (Mr. Cobb shows a picture) Now there’s the bulk of the plane, right there. I got these in ’98 when my wife and I went over there and somebody had taken those pictures and they gave us these. (More pictures shown) Here’s and engine, caterpillar, or one of the wings, another engine and that happens to be the guy who refused to jump. Can you see his hand there? Andy Parker, and I don’t know why, but anyway and then here’s another picture of him and, you might read this. Read it out loud so Tanner can understand it. See the date.
TD: “I am extremely sorry that I must confirm that notification you have received from the war department informing you that your son, Second Lt. Neal T. Cobb, 0699510 has been missing in action since July 7, 1944, when his B24 failed to return from a high altitude bombing mission over Blechammer, Germany. Neal’s plane was separated from the formation soon after leaving the target. When last seen the craft was in no apparent trouble and seemed to be flying under control. If your son reached the ground safely he is most likely interned as a Prisoner of War. However until confirmation of the fact is at hand we can only wait and hope for the best. Be assured that you will be notified if there is any change in Neal’s status. Neal has greatly contributed too many of the recent successes of this Air Force. In his work he exemplified remarkable courage in and beyond the line of duty. I joined his many friends here in extending our most sincere sympathy.
Very sincerely yours,
N.F Twining, Major General
NC: Major General, yes Nathan Twining. He eventually became chief of staff later on. This is the letter that the chaplain wrote. He wrote 998 letters and he wrote it to my mother and that’s the actual letter my mother sent him. You ought to read that and he had asked her, he said, if you hear anything about Neal, please let me know because sometimes we don’t get that information see.
[472-492 Recording not typed in transcript as Mr. Cobb showed various pictures and interviewer looked at pictures and letters]
NC: These are parts of my airplane. Believe it or not, and last time I was back there, two years ago, they were digging potatoes and this guy laughed and came back and handed me two more pieces. Sixty some years, they’re still digging pieces up out of the ground.
[495-500 Recording not typed in transcript as Mr. Cobb showing various pictures and letters.]
NC: Now read that one.
TD: Report just received through the International Red Cross states that your son, Second Lieutenant, Neal T. Cobb, is a Prisoner of War of the German government. Letter of information follows from Provost Marshall and General Ulio, the Adjutant General.
[504-510 Recording not transcribed as Mr. Cobb showed pictures of fellow crew members.]
NC: This is Bratislava, that’s the capital of Slovakia. Are you familiar with Czeck and Slovakia? They were one country and then they became two counties and this is where our POW camp was. We were here for about two weeks and they took us to an, it was an old abandoned army facility of some kind up there and they made that into a prison camp and this was a picture taken in the prison camp and see that right there that’s me.
TD: This?
NC: Yeah, can’t you tell? Anyway, that’s me. We were here about maybe a week and a half and then we came on out there. This is the prison camp but that doesn’t tell you a thing.
[520-537 Recording not transcribed as Mr. Cobb showed information, pictures, papers and letters he got from the archives once they were opened.]
It was just a small camp. This was the complete list of the guys that were there and then there was two, we had one guy from New Zealand and one guy from Scotland that had been prisoners of war of the Germans and working in a coal mine up in Poland and they escaped up there and came down south and they were caught again in Slovakia and they told them they were airmen and so they sent then to our camp. Now, after we got out of camp, this would be of interest to you. Those are Partisans believe it or not. Do you know what partisan is? You don’t. A lot of partisan activity, people who fought against the Germans, you know, in the mountains and places like that. And they were on the run all the time and they were partisans. I don’t know which language it is but that’s what they’re called. We ran into several of those partisan bands and there’s another picture. Now can you see me anywhere in there? (I was taller then, ha.) No, that’s Frank Saltez, he’s a P-51 pilot from Cleveland, Ohio. How about this one right over here? This is George Winberg, my navigator. See there’s Jesse Houston there. Anyway, that’s pictures. How in the hell I got those, I don’t know but they were pictures taken in the mountains. Interesting walk, 350 miles we walked. (?destroyed?)….a pass they gave me, the partisans did and the only thing I can recognize is my name. This is a translation…. This is some of their local money that they used at the time. They were governed by a Catholic priest by the name of Dr. Tiso, who was hung by the allies after the war as a war criminal, which he was. This is a bunch of us in a little town of Banska Bystricia, which was our final destination. That was the headquarters for – I didn’t even tell you about the uprising did I? Well, anyway, these are all identified here.
[564-586 Recording not transcribed as Mr. Cobb showed and described group picture.]
NC: On October 7th, that’s just exactly 3 months, we got flown out of Slovakia and back to Italy. Can you imagine, I was really- I was over seas probably about six months. [Interview interrupted for a brief break.]
TD: When you were a Prisoner of War, was it a horrible experience or not too…
NC: No not really, well, of course number one we were treated better as officers and better then the enlisted men were high ranking enlisted men so we were treated better and the Slovaks were really, matter of fact, the day we went shot, down July 7, of ’44, up until that day every guy they caught like us they turned over to the German authorities, but this was a month and a day after D- Day and they figured we were gonna win the war and if they treated us better as prisoners then the Germans did, that are government-or we would put a good word into our government for their government. You know if we’d ever had the opportunity we probably would have. Ninety percent of the Slovak people were friends of the US. They all had relatives over here you know, and so yes we were not mistreated at all. They gave us what, you know they couldn’t give us much ‘cause they didn’t have much left themselves. Like when we were walking, and we walked 350 miles, they would give us, we would stop, and what we would do is, George and I’d stay back in the woods and Frank would go up to the house. They all knew who we were because the Germans had a reward out for us and they would give us a glass of milk and a piece of bread. That’s about all they could give us. Some places they were scared to death and they’d just slammed the door in our face and tell you go. So we could understand that. The worst thing was water, one time we went twe.. [Tape side one ended and stopped, Mr. Cobb said, “Twenty- four hours without water.”]
[604] End of side one
Side Two
[605]
TD: Interviewer question destroyed. Question concerned plans for escaping.
NC: Well yes and no, because, we had made, or Frank had made real good friends with the Commandant, and Frank was the P-51 pilot, and he would let Frank come into his headquarters every night at 10:00 to listen to BBC so we knew how the war was going on see and this one night, the night of the 29th of August, and we’d been there since the 7th of July, but any way he told Frank that tomorrow morning, he said that right now there’s a big uprising going on and this was at the instigation of the British and the Russians and it was failed, it was doomed right from the start and if the Russians had done what they said they were gonna do it might have proceeded, but they didn’t. So anyway, he said, or the Commandant told Frank that tomorrow morning the Gestapo was going to be here and take over this camp. They had, a mile away, they had a big camp about a mile down the road from us and we didn’t want anything to do with the Gestapo. We did find out later that they were gonna come and kill us. But anyway, Frank came back and told George and I. The three of us had gotten to be friends and we had planned to make an escape the following spring ‘cause it was getting cold up in the mountains. So he came back and told us and we didn’t hesitate and we said let’s go. I had money. When we took off on a mission we were issued what were called escape kits. Have you ever heard of those? Escape kits? Anyway, included in that was atabrine pills for purifying water and stuff like that, cigarettes, and a little compass, and among other things fifty-five dollars in American money in one dollar bill and five dollar bills, and we left a string of those across, you know, when the people really helped us we give it and sign it, all three of us. Man, I’d give a thousand dollars for one of those. Anyway I’ve seen one of them. This was in ‘98, when I went back, and I tried to buy it, but he wouldn’t do it. Anyway, we went to the front gate and paid him fifteen bucks and walked out the front gate at 11:30 at night, pitch black, and I got to tell you we had an awful lot of experiences, close experiences where we were shot at and we’d run. See they didn’t come up in to the mountains unless they were in full force because there was too many Partisans up there. So, anyway, we walked 350 miles in twenty-nine days and walked and got into this little town of Banska Bystricia.
[672 Tape recorder stopped briefly for break]
NC: Let’s see, where were we now?
TD: You were telling us about, you hiked 350…
NC: Miles, yes. Well that was one of the bombers that was there that flew us out that day. (Mr. Cobb showed picture.) What happened was, on the 17th of September, these two B-17’s landed at this little town, a little airfield out there, and they brought in six OSS guys. See the operation had started on the 29th of August and they came in with all this equipment and stuff like that. Six OSS guys, well, what happened was, these guys had gotten to this town of Banska Bystricia, just in time and so my tail gunner was included in here, Johhny, and I know a lot of the others too. Anyway those guys were flown out back to Italy that day. But, anyway, those OSS guys were very active in getting things started there as far as the uprising was concerned.
TD: What is OSS?
[699]
NC: OSS is the Office of Strategic Services. It’s the forerunner of the CIA. It was run by a Major General Bill Donavan, Bulldog they called him. They were the ones that worked, they parachuted people behind the lines and did a lot of damage to the Nazis and all that kind of stuff. That’s what the OSS was; it eventually became the CIA. You know about the CIA don’t you? So a lot of people don’t even know what the OSS is. But anyway the night we got in to Banska Bystricia, we got in at about 11:00 or 11:30 at night, and this was the headquarters for the uprising in this little town. So they put us up in one of their barracks and the next morning at about 7:00, I was awake sitting on the edge of my cot and the door opened and here came this guy in with a Navy hat on and I thought what the hell is this you know, and his name was Lt. Holt Green from South Carolina and he was in charge of the OSS mission there. He made sure we got new uniforms and he gave us about three thousand dollars each, in local currency, and we didn’t see to much of him ‘cause he was busy with other duties, see. We found a little pastry shop just half a block off the square there, and we would sit in front of there and right next to the door that came out from the kitchen. They’d come out with big trays and we’d buy the whole tray and just eat them you know. We finally had to stop because the civilians didn’t have anything you know. But we would go down to the Narodny Hotel at night and it was all blacked out because they’d come and bomb at night, the Germans would, and we’d drink beer and smoke cigarettes and all that kind of stuff, it was something to do. Pretty soon the Germans put a big drive on to eliminate this pocket of resistance behind their lines see. Matter a fact they were close enough we could even hear their firing from the battle and the General in charge of the uprising told Lt. Green, he said, that I can only assume, hold this airfield a few more days. So Green got a hold of Bari, Italy through his wireless, and told him the situation and he said for all of us, and by that time there were thirty of us, he said for all the men to be out at the airfield, the next morning at 9:30. We loaded on a couple of big old flat bed trucks and went out-and this is us you know right here (Shows a Picture). So anyway 10:00 rolled around and it began to get really cloudy, and 10:00-10:30, and we were pretty discouraged and we decided we were going to form our own Partisan band. We were gonna go back and be issued rifles and all that and we didn’t want to do that cause you know, hell, we didn’t have any training in that kind of warfare and about that time, in the clouds, over our head came six B-17��s. They assigned five of us to a plane and we helped unload them and I got pictures of that. As a matter of fact, I have a movie, believe it or not, of these planes coming in. Somebody took movies that day, and when my wife and I were back there in 98, this guy put this thing in their television set, you know, VCR what ever they call them and here were all these airplanes. It just gave me chills cause we were there you know, but anyway, we got them unloaded and they brought in twelve more OSS guys. They brought in United Press Correspondent by the name of Morton, and they stayed and we got on the plane and four and a half hours later we were back in Italy and that was October 7th. So, we were home and there’s long, long stories, but, and a lot of things happened.
[Looking at picture] These guys, were there. There was supposed to be another flight coming at the 22nd of October and these guys were gonna be on it. It never showed up and several of them were killed and the rest of them became prisoners up in Germany and that was it.
[778-835 Mr. Cobb described pictures, letters, and signatures. Audio recording not transcribed. Mr. Cobb and interviewer read letter from fellow veteran and discussed more pictures of veterans and partisans.]
TD: When you got on the plane and landed in Italy then what happened to you?
[836]
NC: Well, of course they took us to the dispensary right away, fed us first, you know, and one of the hospital guys came in and asked us, um I had, my hand had been bitten one night by spiders. We found a haystack to sleep in and there were whole bunch of spiders in it too, and above my GI boots they all became infected. We walked in to this little village to get some whiskey to put on it. The guy tried to talk us in to giving ourselves up. Frank told him what he could do with that and we headed on back in to the hills and as we were going back up, here came this little hand car with twelve German soldiers on it coming in, you know coming in to town. He’d got a hold of them some way but with just twelve guys they didn’t come on out. They probably could have caught us if we’d let them catch us. Anyway, you go ahead and ask me some more.
TD: So you had gotten the spider bites, now what?
NC: Okay, I didn’t tell them about these at that point. I had my hands in my pockets you know but when that was all over with, ‘cause you know, they would have stuck me in the hospital, so I went over to the dispensary and there were a couple of enlisted men and medics. I showed them and they said, “ Oh, my yes, we’ll take care of you, but I’ll tell you if you had waited another day or two you’d have probably gotten blood poisoning very badly.” But they just cleaned them up real good and they just covered me with sulfa powder, wrapped them up and all that and said to get on the ship and after about two days you can go there and think about it, and really it cleaned them up and, but otherwise they would have stuck me in the hospital and I’d been delayed coming home see.
TD: How long did it take for the ship to come?
NC: Well, oh my, I’m still a little bit teed off about that. We had a certain priority, we could wait on ships or planes flying home you know, they had big old C-54, no jets then or anything like that but I said I’m a, we had no priority, anybody with any officers or anything would lump us and all that kinda stuff, so I said, “ George, I’m not gonna take the chance of sitting here and wait for two or three months. I’m gonna go get on a ship cause I know I can get on a ship tomorrow.” George my navigator said “I’m gonna wait.” So, hell it turned out the next day he got on a ship and was home in Oakland, California. Really, it was in about three days, but that’s neither here nor there you know. But I lost, I had won quite a bit of money in a poker game at my other air base, our home base, and I went to the Navy yard to get on the ship, and I went to the post office and I’d got I think it was a thousand dollars in money orders, and I said is there any way I can cash these on the ship and she said there’s no way so I kept or left five hundred dollars to play poker with. First hand, God damn, Lt. Colonel had been over there for three years in one of the infantry. We were playing five card stud and I had three aces. You know, ninety nine times out of a hundred that would win, well he had a full house. So I had to play bridge the rest of the way home. That’s about it. There’s a hell of lot I more could tell you.
TD: How did you feel when you got home?
[895]
NC: Oh my, of course it was a real relief as a matter of fact my kid brother came down on leave and he saw me coming down La Porte Avenue from a 119th street and he ran, but I was nineteen[Corrected should be twenty] years old then can you believe that?
TD: Where did your ship land again?
[901]
NC: When I came back here? Oh, at Camp Kilmer, New Jersey, we came in there into the New York harbor. I saw the Statue of Liberty for the first time you know.
[904 Audio not transcribed, looked again at pictures and tape recorder turned off briefly as described picture out of sequence.]
TD: What was your career after the war?
[907]
NC: Well of course I went right into, (the service) after high school, so I’d never been to college so I went to college first [Interview interrupted by phone call and check to see if recorder on.] So, anyway I’d never been to college, so I went to college first, and I was there under the GI bill. When that was over with, I got married and a girl I met in college there and we had two kids and I started out a career in sales. I was a salesman. Actually that’s about all, nothing very spectacular, but I was always in sales. I enjoyed traveling. I enjoyed doing business with all these different people as I went along. It wasn’t a very, you know, nothing fancy or anything else about it but I worked until I was, let’s see I was eighty- two [ should be sixty two] and my company retired me early and I wasn’t ready to retire. So, I retired on a Friday and on Monday I started manufacturing repping with three of my ex competitors and I did that for thirteen more years, and I finally retired when I was seventy six. That was six years ago. I enjoyed it. I traveled a lot but it got to where it was no fun anymore, you know. The people I’d been calling on all these years were dying off, or retiring. I was ready to retire. It was nothing spectacular. I was assistant sales manager of this one company out of Detroit. It was a good experience and every place I ever called on I could always go back. I never had a door closed behind me, so that’s not spectacular; I didn’t become president or something or anything like that but I gave it my all.
[Audio tape stopped as looking for pictures and not interview style conversation as Mr. Cobb discussed pictures and how cold it was in the planes.]
TD: Did the adrenalin keep you warm?
NC: No, the adrenalin didn’t help. You just, uh…no nothing really helped me (keep warm) I can say the fur lined suits that we wore kept us warm to a certain extent. And they had available electric suits and we tried those one time and we threw them away ‘cause they weren’t worth a hoot.
JD: And how cold did you say it was up there again?
NC: 40 below zero. Well, when you fly down to Florida, you probably fly down at anywhere from twenty thousand to thirty-five thousand feet, and the highest we got was twenty-three thousand feet and it was 40 below so you can imagine how cold it would have been out side.
[Recorder turned off because interviewee and interviewers had agreed at last session talk in non-interview style about some of the pictures and letters, etc. which Mr. Cobb had shown us at the first session.]
TD: Did you get any medals?
[948]
NC: A few Tanner. Matter of fact we got them right here. They’re framed and so I’m not gonna open the frame. This one here at the top one, the one that’s the highest up there, that’s the Distinguished Flying Cross, and to the left of that the blue and orange that’s the Air Medal and I have another one of those so it would be like a cluster to that and then over to the right of course, I think that’s the medal most people recognize, that’s the Purple Heart. That’s for being wounded. And then that little thing right there is, it looks like a little caterpillar and that’s what it is, and anybody whoever parachuted out of an airplane to save their life is a member of the Caterpillar Club. That’s the reason I have that. And then this first one down here, the next one in the row of four, that’s the Prisoner of War, or yeah, POW Medal, and the one next to that is the Medal for the European Theatre and, if I had the medal like they have little rows you know, it would have four stars on it because that means I participated in four campaigns.
TD: What do you mean by campaigns?
NC: Each,… it’s hard to explain but, the four big campaigns, there was probably at least two more because I wasn’t there but during the time that I was over there, they had a campaign going on and that’s what I’m talking about. So each star on the medal would be one of the medals so it’s the European Theatre with four battle stars. And this is, let me think, I think that’s the Victory Medal for our victory over in Europe and that’s the American Theatre Ribbon because we were involved in the American Theatre also, and then this right, here with the bomb in the middle, that’s my bombardier wings. I received those on December 3rd of 1943. Those are the actual wings that I got that day when I graduated. Before I’d gone to bombardier school I’d also gone to gunnery school and that’s the wings of a tail, or of an aerial gunner. Excuse me, I got the little medal we got for marksmanship and all that, I just have those in a little box somewhere but anyway that’s a gunner’s wings and then they had what they call Distinguished Unit Citations, of which that happens to be one, and then that silver star means that I got another one too. That’s a thing that you get for your whole unit, the Distinguished Unit Citation. I can’t tell you, one of them, it was early in July before we were even shot down. It was a particularly bad time that day, I remember that and, but that’s what we got and it’s a Distinguished Unit Citation and the star means that there was another one. I would have records of that somewhere but I can’t look it up really. After I came back from prison camp, I got promoted to First Lieutenant and that’s a Lieutenant’s Bar, First Lieutenant. Second Lieutenant is a Gold bar and Silver is the First Lieutenant and that’s what those are. And there’s a story on each one of those, particularly the upper ones there. When you are given that, you’re awarded that, and Purple Heart is very obvious ‘cause that’s for being wounded and I was wounded twice on the same day but I just got one. That’s all I need, you don’t need to be reminded of it! The Air Medal, was after flying ten missions, you were awarded the Air Medal, and then when you got another seven after that, I think it was, you got another so that’s why I told you about the cluster. I’m very, very proud of that. The one right there that was given for what I did on the day we got shot down and the guys that were with us, only six of us got out, five, no, four of them talked to the people and that’s the reason I was awarded that, for what I did. I went back and took the tail gunner and put a tourniquet on his leg. He was bleeding pretty bad. Did I tell you about the first aid kits? [ 005-015 Not transcribed as previously transcribed when telling about experience of plane going down]
TD: Who would keep track of all you did so you got a medal and would there be a ceremony?
[016]
NC: No,no, it wouldn’t be a, one of your superior officers, well, a Purple Heart is a Purple Heart, that’s for getting wounded and it’s the officers in your, each group, each squadron had their commanding officer and on down, they kept records and stuff like that so, and I have all my records. They’re getting more faded every day. This was all on cheap paper. I don’t even know who the officers were whose names were on those but I have all of them one of these days they’ll probably be faded and won’t even be able to tell what they are. Some things like the telegrams you know, that my folks got, I still have those but you can see they are fading away too but I have some copies of that.
TD: Have you joined a veteran club?
NC: That’s a good question. There’s a lot of veteran clubs. There’s the American Legion, which was started after World War I, you remember when that was don’t you? You’re a good history pupil aren’t you? Do you know what Armistice Day is? You don’t? November 11th, 1918 was Armistice Day, that’s when World War I ended and that was Armistice Day. You should remember that.
TD: I will now.
NC: You will now huh. Yeah ask your teacher, a history teacher, “Why don’t we know these things?” Maybe
a hundred veterans clubs. Last count I had, it was two hundred but you know there all over a hundred years old now.
TD: What year did World War I start?
NC: 1914 I believe it was. We went into it in 1917, when I say we I’m talking about the United States.
TD: So did you join a veteran’s club?
NC: Oh I finally joined the American Legion and I may of became a Lifetime Member, and I maybe go to one or two meetings a year and that’s it. I’m not much of a joiner, and I belong to Disabled American Veterans, and I belong to the AFEES which is a very interesting group. AFEES is the Air Force Escapee and Evadee Society, real interesting, very exclusive group too. It’s anybody who ever escaped and evaded the enemy which was the Germans in this case and came out. They formed this society which is, it’s mostly guys from the 8th Air Force, and course they were stationed in England, in the 8th Air Force. They had a lot more then and they flew a lot more missions than the guys out of Italy, and some of the guys from Italy who bailed out like myself, ‘cause I was captured for a while and then I escaped. But most of our guys that hit targets around Vienna up in that area and when they finally bailed out or crashed, they were down over Yugoslavia… [060- 072Mr. Cobb describes some of the operations of these airmen.] Well, let’s see, what else, I’ve been in The War. (Mr. Cobb laughs with interviewers, and Mr. Cobb talks of family, interview ends.)
[076]
