Interview with Mrs. Ruth Berman
[b. 7/30/1922]
Recorded on 11/12/2006
MB: To what force did you enlist your service?
RB: Actually I was not a nurse; I enlisted in what they called the British Civilian Volunteers. That was in London.
MB: What did the British Civilian Volunteers do?
RB: They worked in the offices of the European Theatre of Operations. At that time, it was under General Eisenhower’s command. We were in charge of the paper work concerning supplies for the army. We didn’t realize that it was top secret. We were preparing for Operation OVERORD, which was the invasion of Europe after Hitler.
MB: What was your motivation to enlist your services?
RB: I was already working for the British Red Cross in London. We were a bunch of young women, 17, 18 we were going to be drafted into the British services: either the Army, Air Force, or the Land Army (the farmers [were] short of help on the farms). I wasn’t quite at that age, so I volunteered to go with the American Army which was in London at the time; they were also developing offices in Cheltenham, Gloucestershire in England, where I spent two years.
MB: What was it like when you arrived at your station?
RB: Well, since we were civilians, they had allotted us accommodations in what they called hostels, which were large houses. We were stationed in these different houses. This is where we lived. We had most of our meals there.
MB: So in the hostel, is that where you worked as well?
RB: No, no, we worked in a new building, this was in Cheltenham, this was in a fairly new building, and I remember trudging through the mud because the roads had not been built in yet.
MB: What did you do essentially on a normal day? Like what was your routine?
RB: Well, we had to be at work at a certain time, we did an eight hour day, but mind you… during the build up to Operation OVERLORD, we were working close to 24 hours a day.
MB: And you say you did not know what Operation OVERLORD was?
RB: Oh yes, Operation OVERLORD was the invasion of Normandy, “D-Day.”
MB: So you essentially worked with paperwork?
RB: Yes, we had all these instructions to the supply depots, they all had to be typed out… and all these were top secret, not just secret but top secret. Because they had various categories, there was confidential, secret, than top secret. There was a lot of really interesting stuff there. But we didn’t realize what we were doing until the end of course.
MB: What was your workplace like? Was it close to where you were living?
RB: It was fairly close. They had buses, but often we’d be too late for the bus and we’d have to, “thumb a ride.”
MB: Was there anyone there that you met who’ve you’ve kept in touch with?
RB: Oh yes, I still have friends that I stay in contact with.
MB: How did your life change from when you were serving and when you weren’t?
RB: Well, before I started working with the U.S. Army, I don’t think we had as much food, because England was being rationed at the time.
MB: When at your station, how was food distributed?
RB: It was cafeteria style, we helped ourselves. I remember going up to this counter, and weather we served ourselves, or it being given to us, I do remember seeing this man off in the distance making a meatloaf in this huge bowl mixing it with his hands and arms. I’d never seen anything like it before.
MB: Where your meal times set? Or was it more when you were hungry you were allowed to eat?
RB: No, no, no, this was just lunch mind you, than we’d have dinner back at the hostel, which was also at a set time.
MB: Did you ever make the bus on time?
RB: Occasionally, yes, I was a good runner in those days.
MB: What were the bus stops like?
RB: Well, they were just a stop down at the end of the road, than they’d take us out to Benhall Farm. I think were this army installation was it was a farm before so they just called it Benhall Farm. It’s all coming back to me.
MB: So the roads were still being built while you were there?
RB: Yes, because I remember all this mud, and thinking what a mess this is. But they eventually got it sorted out.
MB: Was there ever combat where you were?
RB: Oh no, we were in England there was no combat in England. They were dropping bombs of course, but never any combat.
MB: Was there a bomb that ever came close to your station?
RB: There were plenty of bombs around London, but not near Cheltenham.
MB: Were you ever allowed to leave if you needed a break?
RB: Oh yes, we were completely at liberty to what we wanted in our free time.
MB: What did you do in your free time?
RB: Well we went to the movies, the occasional dance... play a little bit of tennis, if weather permitted.
MB: Did you meet any friends while you were there?
RB: There was one girl from the Red Cross, but she was assigned to a different section.
MB: What did the British Red Cross do?
RB: We were seeing that supplies, again these were supplies that had been donated to help people in Russia. There were packages going off to Russia all the time.
MB: What were some of the major differences from your life at your station, and your life at home?
RB: Well, for one thing, there was the sort of camaraderie of being with a bunch of people your own age. It was quite different, I mean living at home, and I had to go to the office every morning for the British Red Cross. It was a sort of chummy atmosphere in Cheltenham.
MB: Did you take away anything from your experiences?
RB: Well I think we learned to sort of cooperate… I don’t really know what I learned.
MB: Were there any ranks?
RB: No, no, but there were rates of pay, but there weren’t any ranks, it wasn’t until I was in uniform, in Paris, until there were ranks.
MB: What did you do in Paris?
RB: Well, it was similar office sort of job. Once we got to Paris, we were in uniform when I arrived. We had to wear these helmets, and I remember we arrived in Paris with these canteens around our waists. They were these belts with the various eating utensils.
MB: Why were you placed in a uniform when you moved to Paris?
RB: Well because it was considered a battle area. Because a few times at night, you would here a gunshot because they were catching up to people who were running away as to not get caught.
MB: Where you ever in a combat situation?
RB: Never, never.
MB: Did one of your friends ever get moved out of Paris?
RB: Well, occasionally, it seems that they would get moved, yes. But there wasn’t too much of that. There was a time when I wanted to move, but my boss wouldn’t allow it.
MB: Where did you want to move?
RB: I wanted to move to a place called Biarritz. Which was on the south west coast of France.
MB: Why would you want to move there?
RB: It just appealed to me, I liked the climate, remember I was only in my early twenties than, and I thought I’d like a change of scenery, if you could imagine. But my boss said that he didn’t want an old turkey working for him. [Lots of laughter]
MB: So, about how long were you stationed at a certain place?
RB: Well, I was in Paris for 5 years.
MB: So the friends you made there… were any of them stationed at your previous station?
RB: Yes, definitely.
MB: Did your job change when you went to Paris?
RB: No not all that much. It was essentially take notes at meetings, running the office, making sure everything went smoothly.
MB: Were your meals still rationed when you went to Paris?
RB: No, no infact I gained about 20 pounds!
MB: Were your meal times set when you were in Paris?
RB: No, not quite as much. There is a picture of a place of one of the buildings I showed you. With all that confetti was being poured because of the victory parade because all the Nazis had just left. I think it was called Le Marino. That is where the officers’ mess was. The officers were able to eat there, we could come and go, not at anytime, but we could eat in between times. It wasn’t so regimented.
MB: While in Paris, did you ever go to the opera?
RB: Oh yes! Many times, frequently. We stopped work when I suppose about nine and our free time lasted until we elected to go to bed. But we didn’t stay out all hours of the night like you. But no, we could do what ever we wanted.
MB: Where would you sleep?
RB: We were assigned to hotels all very nice hotels. During the course of my stay in Paris I stayed in about four or five different hotels. They moved us from one hotel to another, but they were all very nice.
MB: Why would you move hotels?
RB: I’m not sure why. I don’t remember the reason. There wasn’t any problem; I mean I didn’t have much baggage.
MB: Were your accommodations paid for by the government?
RB: Oh yes.
MB: While in Paris, were you still working for the American Army?
RB: Oh yes.
MB: Since you were working with the American Army… when did you get your citizenship?
RB: I got my American citizenship thirty years ago after I came here to America.
MB: Why did you come here?
RB: I came here because I married your grandpa.
MB: You met him in the war correct?
RB: I met him after the war actually, but I met him in Paris.
MB: Could you describe a night out in the town?
RB: A night out would consist of dinner, but dinner would last. They didn’t have fast-food in Paris. The didn’t know the word “fast-food”. I mean you would go out to dinner and it would take all evening.
MB: Would the army pay for your dinner?
RB: No, that was your date’s responsibility.
MB: Was the lunch generally the same?
RB: Yes it was generally the same yes, but I want to go back a bit. To start with you could not go into the Paris restaurants right at the very beginning, because they didn’t really have any food I don’t think they even had coffee. They must have made it out of acorns or something weird. So I mean we were there quite a while before we could indulge ourselves in the Paris restaurants.
MB: Why was there no food?
RB: Well because they were a nation at war. Their supplies were the same as England. No one had any food to speak of.
MB: Was there ever a time when it was hard, and you just wanted to leave?
RB: No, I thoroughly enjoyed myself. I know it sounds terrible to say you enjoyed a war. There were terrible things going on, but I suppose I should be telling you I was deprived. But I wasn’t really.
MB: How long was it before the food came back to Paris?
RB: I think it was probably a year or so.
MB: And the Americans were supplying your food?
RB: Right, the Americans had plenty of food, they had plenty of everything. But the local population was very short on everything, everything imaginable.
MB: Would you say a civilian would ever ask you for food?
RB: No. Nobody would ever ask you for food. I wasn’t really in any position. The only food I had access to was in the mess. So I mean I couldn’t get a pound of butter or a loaf of bread. But I do know that the officers and the GI’s had access to the PX. They would get cigarettes and chewing gum and that sort of thing. And they would give those to the locals. The word “gum, chum” originated in England. The children in England used to run after the American soldiers saying “gum, chum” because they wanted them to give chewing gum to them.
MB: Did you ever have gum or was it just the GI’s and officers.
RB: Well, I could have had it but I didn’t chew gum.
MB: But were you part of the candy supply?
RB: It seems to me that I had access to what they called the PX. I used to get candy it seems to me. I used to get Clark Bars. I remember Clark Bars.
MB: What did you have to do to get candy?
RB: I had to have a PX card. But I’m just trying to recall… how that exactly worked. My memory is a little bit dim on that part, I’m sorry.
MB: How did you get a PX card?
RB: I presume I would request it from the AG, the Adjutant General. It was sort of a formality. It was your due.
MB: So if you had a PX card, were your indulgences paid for?
RB: No, we had to pay for it. I think we paid for it… it’s rather involved but I think we paid for it in what was called scrip. It was a sort of army money; how it worked I cannot remember. I probably have some of it still.
MB: How did you make money to go out and eat?
RB: Well, let me see… they had some sort of money exchange… how were we paid? I think we were paid in scrip. Maybe I could get on the phone and call some of my friends that were there at the time. But I think we were paid in scrip and there was some sort of money exchange where it was turned into local currency which was French francs.
MB: Was the scrip exchange part of the army installation?
RB: Yes.
MB: Was that a big trade facility?
RB: No, no it was just sort of a small post office or something…
MB: Did you ever send letters?
RB: Yes, yes.
MB: How would you do that? Did the army provide a service?
RB: The army provided the service, but my address at one point was an army post office, originally. That went on for a year or so or more, but eventually, I would say after I’d been there about two or three years, people wrote to me at what hotel I was staying at.
MB: So you started in the British Red Cross and you were moved, and than you were moved again. What were the transitions like, and how were you transported?
RB: When I left the Red Cross I was working in London at the time and when I signed up with the American Army which was also in London, and once I had signed up some time elapsed and it was just like an every day thing. I had gone with a friend to do this. I made my way down on public transport which was excellent and still is excellent. All you had to do was hop on the train and go to Cheltenham. At some point in time we were assigned to these various hostels as the called them; these old houses that had been commandeered by the army for these purposes and we made our own way. But how I got from Cheltenham to Paris was on an airplane. It was the first plane flight I had ever taken. I had never been on a plane; you know people didn’t fly around in those days.
MB: Since that wasn’t normal to fly on a plane, were you excited?
RB: I certainly was excited! It was a THRILLING experience!
MB: Were you nervous at all? Scared?
RB: No, no, I wasn’t I wasn’t scared I was sort of silly in those days, even when the bombs were dropping I was silly.
MB: You say, “the bombs were dropping,” how close would you say the bombs would drop?
RB: Well, that was while I was in London when I was experiencing that. And that was when I was living in the London suburbs, Beckenham, and the bombs were dropping promptly around there because they weren’t necessarily targeting Beckenham, but the Germans would drop their bombs on London, and if they were turning around to go back to their home bases and they had some bombs that they hadn’t dropped, they would what the called “scuttle” them, and they would scuttle them in outlying areas of London. And we happened to be in an outlying area, so we had quite a few, in fact we had one where we were living, three houses down, the backyard was about the size of a bus, there was a bomb crater there and it shook. All of our windows had been taped, I don’t know if you have seen the movies, wartime England, they had tape on all the windows, crisscrossed, not to stop them from breaking, but to stop them from shattering and the shards flying around causing injuries. So, they were made shatterproof that way. But there were many bombs flying around at that point. One came very, very close to us, and the suction was so great that the door latches were wrenched out of place, because it was a sort of a vacuum effect. There are various bomb experiences like that in our suburb of Beckenham. I remember actually, come to think of it, my brother David was out in the back yard, he saw this plane coming very close, and he was machine gunning, and David came in and he said, “Oh look here!” he was about ten at the time, and he said, “Oh look here at this thing,” and my mother said, “Oh get in here! Come in the house!” and he literally machine gunned a friend of ours, who was in some artillery, he was an older man, and they were all sort of drilling, doing their drills in the local park. I guess the Nazi machine gunner saw what he thought [they] were a bunch of men in their uniforms, they were drilling in their uniforms, and he killed one I remember particularly.
MB: What would you do when the bombs would drop?
RB: Actually, often, it was a joke; the sirens would go off after the bombs would drop. No, we had a shelter, we got under the dining room table, because the chance of getting a direct hit were pretty scarce, but all the rubble and all the debris, you really needed protection. So if you’re setting under a dining room table, or under some stairs, you were protected. But no, as I say, my younger brother and I were fairly sort of nonchalant about that. You asked me earlier I was worried about going on that plane for the first time, and I wasn’t. When you’re young, you just think it’s sort of an adventure! I don’t know if one’s just stupid, or what it was but, we didn’t lie awake worrying about it, I’m sure my mother and father did. People were off in the army…
MB: You said you taped the windows to stop shattering, but did you ever have any blackouts, or curfews?
RB: Oh yes! Absolutely! Defiantly! You couldn’t strike a match outside. No lights were allowed to be seen.
MB: Why no lights?
RB: Because the bombers could see the lights from above!
MB: So if a light was seen they would bomb it?
RB: They presumably, I don’t know why if one light was seen, that it was seen as a target. But I do know this, with all the cloudy weather, they had to try to fly under the clouds, but mostly they would wait for cloudless nights, and cloudless nights and a full moon, you could read the newspaper, under a full moon and a cloudless night. So they’d come along and bomb the heck out of London under those circumstances.
MB: Was there a curfew where you couldn’t go out, or you had to stop driving?
RB: No, but there weren’t any cars in the streets I think most of the transport was public transport. But there were cars, plenty of cars, but not the abundance that there are today.
MB: So you said David was in the army?
RB: No, not David, Peter. Peter was in the army.
MB: What did Peter do?
RB: Peter was in the army at that time, he was, I believe, at that time I’m not sure, but at some time he was at Dunkirk. At the time when all the Allied forces had to leave France, they were driven from France by the Nazis. They would, at the waters edge, and all these boats, every little boat, every large boat, every boat the size of dad’s went across the channel to rescue these boys who were stuck still on the beaches at Normandy. They were all brought back to England. And then of course we drove them back out!
MB: When you were transported to France, was that recent to when the Nazi’s had been there? Or had they come and gone.
RB: Oh! Well, when we arrived in Paris, I’d just taken my first flight, we were assigned to these hotels and than we were told where we were going to be working and where we were going to be eating. We were told actually, in this Hotel Majestic, which is where the main offices were, that had been a headquarters for one of the big sections of the Nazi apparatus. I don’t know if it was the equivalent of the CIA or what. But it was a really big headquarters in the Hotel Majestic. But when the Americans arrived there and when we arrived there, there were snacks and drinks left. They had left in a hurry. There were cigarettes left in the ash trays.
MB: Were any of your siblings or parents involved in this war, or previous wars?
RB: Well, my father, actually my step father, was in World War I. He was in the trenches in France. He had this problem with his hearing, on account of that.
MB: When you arrived in France, that there were half eating snacks and drinks and cigarettes. Was there any evidence, or papers left that they didn’t have time to clean up?
RB: I presume so; I mean if they left in that much of a hurry, they must have left stuff. As a matter of fact, in the first hotel, they had some very nice built-in wardrobes. And some of their, I suppose got into civilian clothing at some time or another. They must have gone out at night or something, because there were these beautiful silk shirts, Beautiful, monogrammed silk shirts hanging in there.
MB: Where any of your other siblings involved in the war?
RB: No, no, my younger brother was too young to serve in the war.
MB: So when you were living in your suburbs with the bombs, did that contribute to motivation to get out of there?
RB: Well, what contributed to get into the British Red Cross was that I felt like I would like to be doing something useful. I wasn’t eligible; I can’t remember how old you had to be to volunteer to be in what is known as the WACS over here. The women’s auxiliary army, or air force, or naval. Eventually I wanted to volunteer for that, but my mother was very upset. She would say, “Oh no, you can’t do that, I’ll just give everything up if you leave.” Well in a couple of years, I’d be due to be drafted anyway. So I didn’t do that, I simply volunteered to go with the American army.
MB: Why was the American army different from the British Red Cross?
RB: Ah… the pay was better!
MB: Which service would you have particularly wanted to go to, but you mentioned the naval service?
RB: I liked the idea of the Naval service because I liked the uniform.
MB: So your ideal of this was somewhat shallow?
RB: Shallow? COMPLETELY! I was nineteen at the time!
MB: So you didn’t care what you were doing or where you were going, all you cared about is if you were getting paid well and got to look good?
RB: Right, isn’t that terrible?
MB: Mhm, but once you got where you were going, and had to be serious were you on a strict schedule?
RB: No, I wouldn’t say that. No.
MB: Did you ever have to work overtime?
RB: Yes, I had to work overtime in Cheltenham prior to Operation OVERLORD, and there was another invasion while I was in Cheltenham, it was called Operation TORCH which was the code name for the landing in North Africa.
MB: What did you do with the papers?
RB: I would type them and I would take dictation from who ever was in charge of the branch. It was G4 actually, it was called G4. That was the division that was in charge of supplies for the army.
MB: Were you ever offered to leave your division and go to a different one?
RB: Let me see, I don’t recall.
