Veteran Transcript
Bert C. Holmes
[b. 06 / 26 / 1919]
[00:05 counter start #]
“Today is October 7th, 2007. I am Anagha Inguva and I am interviewing Mr. Bert C. Holmes at 13764 Roswell Drive in Carmel, Indiana. There is no relationship between me and him [Mr. Holmes]. Mr. Holmes, [is] 88 years old and was born on June 26, 1919. Mr. Holmes served in the Korean War and World War II. Mr. Holmes was in the Second Armored Division and held the first lieutenant rank.”
[00:47]
AI: Were you drafted or did you enlist into the war?
BH: In the Korean War [I was a reservist in the service], and in the Second World War I was up for the draft, but I volunteered to go early.
AI: Where were you living at the time?
BH: Crown Point, Indiana.
AI: And why did you join?
BH: Well, the war was on and I was expected to go.
AI: Why did you pick the service branch you [had] joined?
BH: I didn’t, they picked us. They took us as was needed. We were the Fifth Army Corps area. We went with – most of the fellows drafted with me went to Fort Knox, Kentucky and went into armor. Just the army needed us and you could volunteer for different units when you got there if you wanted to, but I stayed with it and I liked it. Fort Knox was the center of all the armor and General Devers commanded it. He was probably the best-armored officer in the world. He created our armored outfits. All of them. He commanded, of course, an army group in Europe and eventually became chief of staff of the U.S. Army.
[02:14]
AI: Do you recall your first days in service?
BH: Oh yes, very well. Some of those things stick with you. The first day in the army I went through Indianapolis—I say it was Fort Benjamin Harrison. (I don’t know whether it’s still open or not), and they put you right through work. I was couple years older than the other fellows so they gave me the job of carrying messages. I was trying to learn how to salute and everything the first day and they kept us real busy. We dressed that day. We put on those old fashion leggings, which we didn’t know how to use, and they were miserable, and we listened to lectures by old veterans of the First World War. Then [we] came back from there [and] we went to Fort Knox, Kentucky a lot of us, and took our—three months training there, and from there Pine Camp, New York to the Fourth Armored Division. At the Fourth Armored Division I became a corporal, and what’s called a mortar corporal in the Reconnaissance Company and they kept us busy.
While I was there, I acquired the—yellow jaundice. A lot of us got it from yeah-bad medicine, and I was content to stay there in enlisted status of corporal and go on to sergeant stuff, but there was a need of officers and the commanding general called about a dozen of us up and said, “you will apply for officers school.” He didn’t ask us, he told us. So that was it. So from there it was back to Fort Knox for school and that was a harrowing experience. In the first place, because we were on maneuvers in Tennessee, and I was in my fatigues, in my jeep as the first sergeant came and got me and says “You were supposed to be on your way to school.” An hour later I was on the train in fatigues and I went to the school, which was like West Point.[It was strict. When the inspections came I had no uniform but was dressed in my fatigues. The rest of the men were all dressed in nice uniforms.] So I stood out like a sore thumb. I couldn’t hide, but eventually my clothes reached me.
From there I went to the Eleventh Armored Division. It was in Louisiana and I went into a reconnaissance unit there. I stayed with the Eleventh for a long time. I was asked if I wanted to join the intelligence section, and I said, “No, I wanted to stay and be in the line company.” I thought I was better off there and I stayed with the Eleventh leaving it once to go to school at Fort Knox, (we had a tactic school with naval officers and the like). Then into the California desert and maneuvered there, had a couple of leaves home. It was in the desert that we got our orders to go to overseas. At the time our commanding general, General Edward Brooks was going overseas, too, and I believe that he had selected a bunch of us at the same time to be replacement officers for the Second Armored Division, which he commanded. He took over and then we joined there. I stayed with him then, [until General Harmor took over the division.]
AI: What did it feel like?
BH: Well, as I had the experience like a lot of these fellows are having now (they…the fellows who are running two different terms in Iraq and Afghanistan and stuff like that), going back into it the second time. I went into the Second World War all gunho. Naturally, I thought I could lick everybody but the second time around you go in with a little more trepidation. You know what you’re getting into. Even on the boat going over we knew the difference. The fellows who had never been in combat and the veteran officers— there was a great deal of difference. We were a little more sober [since] we knew what was going to happen.
[06:47]
AI: Could you tell me about your boot camp or training experience?
BH: Well I had just about everything there was. I was … qualified in artillery, infantry and tanks. I did it all. I had an excellent school there at Fort Knox. Tank gunnery and everything; I learned all that so that I could teach it to the others.
AI: How did you get through it?
BH: Well, luckily I think I had awfully good officers in Europe. Some of the very best I thought …that I served with. The men that I commanded were awfully good, too, very good. That all helps and a lot of luck.
[07:40]
AI: Which wars did you serve in?
BH: Second World War and Korean War.
AI: And where exactly did you go?
BH: I was on Omaha Beach in Europe to the German border [with 3rd rank, 67th armored request]—I got that far. We were—the next day after I was in injured, our outfit [?] entered. We had a real rough time in Holland and one of my friends that I had served with all the way from California, I put in the ambulance his dead body that is. Two hours before I got hit. Another officer that I had served with had blown his tank, but he had been shot out of three tanks and taken over the mortar platoon. Then the mortar platoon got caught in the field under the fire and it just broke him, he took an awful beating. Then we were busy all day. We fought and second battalion Hollingsworth had gone ahead of us and we were behind fighting and it got dark. We finally settled down for the night. That was the [18th] of September and we didn’t know what was ahead. The colonel asked me to take a platoon out – a section squad – and try to contact the others, and we had to get through the enemy lines to do it and I did. I contacted Hollingsworth later that night. He was unhappy; he had lost nine tanks and on the way back I ran into a minefield and our own unit opened fire on us. We were in a heck of a mess so that ended it for me and I spent a year in the hospital, [Kennedy General in Memphis, TN].
[09:35]
AI: Do you remember arriving and what was it like?
BH: The battlefield? Well goofy things happened, and in this case when I landed I had to—I was second in command of a couple hundred men, that we were taken in as replacements, and as soon as we hit the ground the captain had to leave, and I took over. It was moving inland as fast as we could go so that we could join whatever outfits were coming up. There were still bodies laying around. One of the officers with a German machine gun almost shot [me while playing around with it].
The first day went good, because that was the day when I met the officer I had served under and he came particularly special, because his reconnaissance officer had been killed there, they had been sunk hitting the beach, and he had no platoon. He had nothing. He depended on his eyes and ears and he needed a recon officer and I said to him, “Don’t worry,” because that’s all I knew and I told him so and I didn’t have time to think about much. He said, “You’ve got to build up a platoon.” He said, “There’s only one man left,” and I didn’t even know how those platoons were constructed. Each unit is different. A reconnaissance company may be different from a reconnaissance battalion or a [recon?] and this was a separate reconnaissance platoon which served right with the headquarters company, so you worked right with the boss. So I interviewed some of the men that I had brought in and picked the ones that wanted to work with me and I formed a unit that day, right on the field the colonel asked me to go out check some sniping that was going on in the field. I brought up a half-track that was supposed to be the command vehicle that was like a tank. An officer’s supposed to ride in that. I found out that was [impractical] I couldn’t do anything then we got in there we found it and we got attacked by the aircraft. We got out of that alright. After that, I took over the south scout section and stayed in the jeep where I could be in the front to see what was going on. I needed to be right there with them and that’s what I did from then on.
AI: What was your job assignment?
BH: Reconnaissance. If you could find the enemy, to lead the company or the unit into combat or wherever you’re going and to house them, just to be the right-hand man, the colonel’s eyes and ears. Once you go into combat then you start looking for flanks and everything else—the enemy’s flank of course, and they’re out there obviously, and if you get any information you have to get it back. I had real good people working for me—. Little radio operator who sat way up high on the jeep and he would always report back what I was doing if I couldn’t get away with something, which quite often happened but that was it. [When] the Battle of St. Lo started we broke through, we were in the Nineteenth Corps and I was on the extreme left flank of it, to [maintain reason]. We were kept hopping? We were real lucky. Actually I can’t remember that? We found out that we could use, [reconnaissance by fire] especially. The fewer men I took on a mission the better off I—about three or four real good men. When I dismount the patrol and leave one, of us in the back to get the information. You got a [large bunch] of guys together, it’s harder to control. So that’s the way we worked and we worked pretty good.
AI: Did you see combat?
BH: Yes, pretty much.
AI: Were there many casualties in your unit?
BH: No, I was real lucky that way, really.
[14:16]
AI: Could you tell me a couple of your most memorable experiences?
BH: Well, they’re not very pleasant, you know. Sometimes when you’ve hurt somebody, you hear them screaming for their mother, it affects you for the rest of your life. You know that you had to do it. It was your fault, but you just don’t say no and that happens. when—after the St. Lo break- through why a general came up and said, “We have to go now, — we are really on the move.” I had one of the only maps available and some of the generals ––– the others were flying maps to us in Europe, because we were moving so fast, after that break through. Then we headed we headed for Belgium and we were the Second Armored and we had planned (at least the government the army) that we would take Paris, and then they changed their minds and gave that to the French Second Armored Division. But they wanted the honor, and that we were also sitting anyways. So we headed for Holland and we went through Belgium and then into Holland. But the Reconnaissance officer worked with the point all the time and you had certain groups at a time, because by the time I hit the German border to Holland I got that they were all gone, but me the last thing I could do was turn in my platoon to a sergeant.
AI: Were you a prisoner of war?
BH: No, almost one night we had after the break through the German’s broke through our line and our men got mixed up with the Germans in the columns. We didn’t know them and they didn’t know us, we got out in the morning we found the Germans where they had broken through the [?] vehicles and stuff. We were in the position we were [?] the British were pushing against the Germans and we were on the other side of them. The first time I got hit was when I was trying to find how close the British were and I got too close to the German lines and ran into the machine guns. [When I got out of that it hurt a little bit, as I had been slightly wounded in the left leg.]
AI: Could you tell me about your experiences in captivity and when freed.
BH: No I wasn’t in captivity, thank goodness.
[17:05]
AI: Were you awarded any medals or citations?
BH: [Oh I received the Purple Heart with an oak leaf cluster for my second injury, the Bronze star, the Army Commendation Medal, and the Belgian Croix De Guerre (the fourragere). For my service in the Korean Conflict I received the United Nations Medal and the Korean Distinguished Unit Service Award.]
[18:26]
AI: How did you stay in touch with your family?
BH: Mostly postcards. My mother was real wise. She addressed a lot of postcards to herself stamped and everything. Then mailed them to me so that I could scribble a note. That’s all she wanted you know. I wrote quite a bit and I would generally do that when right about the time I was censoring mail. That was one of our jobs, censoring mail. I had to censor mail—they didn’t have to submit it to me. They could submit it in a blue envelope so that I didn’t touch it if they didn’t want me personally to read it. Sometimes it happened –but generally it was that. Korea was a little simpler, because I wrote pretty regular. I kept notes and I would mail the notes to her every so often. Also when I was in Korea or in Japan visiting, the army had a very nice service. I could go in and tell them I wanted to talk to my wife. Then they’d tell me what time to make the long distance call and Irene would be ready. So I did, I called Irene from Tokyo. Which was unusual in those days you know, an overseas phone call and she enjoyed it.
[19:50]
AI: What was the food like?
BH: Very good, you hear lots of complaints from fellows, but actually it was good. The first day I came in the army it was—they just over feed us. Everything we wanted, and even the[C rations]. In fact on Thanksgiving, when we especially—when we were in Thanksgiving in Korea you know, they insisted on bringing us a Turkey [etc]. By the time we ate, it was cold and we were better off with our [C rations]. Which were really quite good. So no, we ate well and medical health was good so much better than previous wars. Probably as good as it’s getting today. No, the food was always good except in Korea we didn’t have fresh food. They fertilized with human waste and we didn’t want any of those crops. It was a bad idea. It was probably all right, but we did miss the vegetables. In fact one of our generals who was captured said that when he was a prisoner he ate cloves of garlic. He wanted vegetables so bad. I couldn’t stand that, he did. [There were also K rations]
AI: Did you have plenty of supplies?
BH: Yes two things, one time as I told you the maps were scarce we were moving so fast, there weren’t any supplies. Then other times were when the gas ran out of the gasoline tank, that was the most important thing. We could go a long time without food, but you can’t go without the gasoline. So we had to have it. That was the only thing. Otherwise we had nice bathing facilities with supplies. They set up showers and things like that for us to go to these facilities. Now and then when you could get through. Otherwise, no complaints about that. [Even in Korea we had movies to show. We would put up a screen outside at night to watch them.]
AI: So your entertainment was movies, what other types of entertainment did you have?
BH: Oh played poker a lot, the officers did in our tents at night sometimes. Poker games had a little bit of money not too much you know. That was about it. [Lots of men didn’t particularly care to take furloughs. Once you got out of combat, you didn’t want to go back. It’s hard. You’re better off staying there.]
[22:43]
AI: Did you feel pressure or stress?
BH: [The pressure we felt in reconnaissance was due to excessive physical activity since we were on duty 24 hours a day, on call at all times. Ordinary fatigue was our greatest problem.]
AI: So before a war, did you always have that nervous feeling that stress, that pressure at all?
BH: Oh no, I was always self confident when I was young. My father trained my brother and me to be boxers. We were [well-known child boxers]. We had quite a few [bouts in boxing].
AI: Was there something special you did for “good luck”?
BH: Oh no I don’t think so. Nothing, I’m a Christian and I carried a testament with me you know. Just the usual I grew up in a society where we used to go to [church]. We had a Christian endeavored society. Things like that. That’s where I met my friends and eventually met my wife.
[I met my wife’s sister in church. My wife and I were introduced by people who cared for both of us. The best way!]
[24:47]
AI: You said people entertained themselves with poker, and movies.
BH: [Yes], and looking for girlfriends.
AI: Were there entertainers?
BH: Yes, but we didn’t see too many of them. We were too far advanced really. We did see some. Mostly they were in the rear they didn’t get that close to the front.
[25:18]
AI: What did you do when on leave?
BH: Well the only leave I had in the United States it was in the United States. I went home but my older brother was in Europe, after the war. He went to Switzerland, and he had some nice travel. He went to Switzerland far enough to look into India. My brother and I were both there on the beach at the same time, but I could never get to see him. I had the military police and everybody looking for him. For his unit, we never did get together. We were in England at the same time. Well he was in Wales and I was in England and we tried to get together. We couldn’t. I did meet my best friend though in England, we had a nice section together.
[26:08]
AI: Where did you travel while in the service?
BH: Well we covered—we went—training went all the way from New York to California, and Tennessee maneuvers. We saw a great deal of the United States. When we were in Louisiana we were assigned California, so we drove all that way. We took our columns and of course that was hard, because we had to stop at night, and the civilians come in and look at us. Tents all in order and everything.
[26:41]
AI: Do you recall any particularly humorous or unusual events?
BH: Well when I was in Japan I bought dishes; I went to the Noritake Factory to order dishes for my wife and the complete set. I bought them there and the fellow took out the two big boxes and put them on a bicycle and drove them to the army post, and mailed them home. They got them home without a break. Then in England a cameo collector—stones—and I went to a little shop in Bristol. [I bought six citrine gemstones. The single cameo I bought home was for my mother. My mother later gave it to my wife]. That’s one of those things I brought back from Europe. Plus several amethysts and citrine and topaz, which I picked up in Scotland for my wife. We still have those and a few books I brought back that were printed in England. I still have some of them.
AI: What were some of the pranks that you or others pulled off?
BH: Well, they weren’t exactly pranks. I tell you we opened up the post for the Korean War. We went into the—we all arrived there and there was nothing there. Their barracks were empty no furniture or anything else so we knew we would have men coming in soon. So we raided the other barracks. Other companies took out the mirror and stuff we needed and brought it into ours. We took care of ourselves. Mostly, all you care about is your own health. [The only prank our company pulled was due to our shortage of bed sheets. We would raid the hospital for sheets]. Of course we had to [account] for all that. So one of the fellows said their officers knew one of the nurses to talk to. So she let us in the back door. We went in and helped ourselves to a lot of sheets and took them for our company and it stayed in the army of course. That was a prank all right.
[29:25]
AI: Do you have photographs that we could talk about right now?
BH: I could find them it would take awhile wait.
[His daughter comes in to help him find the photos]
AI: Who are the people in the photographs?
BH: This was [Wesley] Ballard. He was the only officer in our outfit that had gone to an infantry school. He was my assistant in the 3rd platoon—he stayed in the army and died of a major heart attack after First World War. This is Lieutenant Philip Crowe who commanded the [company] and took it out to combat, and came back a captain. One of the best officers in the world. This fellow was the first sergeant, I saw him last at a reunion. This fellow visited me at my home. This fellow, last time I saw him was at a reunion, and he was teaching my daughter how to swim or dive. That was several years ago. But I knew most of those; this was one of the best soldiers I ever knew. He was the mortar sergeant and he won several awards, when we had military contests and he took us over. The first sergeant when they landed and was killed in action almost the first day sergeant Fox wonderful man, [at least when the picture was taken]. I knew them all at one time. [I was in school at Fort Knox at the time this picture was taken. The numbers were placed on the photograph to test our memory in identifying these men by name.
AI: Where was this taken?
BH: Oh this. This had to be—If I was in school this was probably in Texas. We were in Texas for a while and from Texas I went to the school and back here. From Texas we went to California.
AI: How did you get this picture?
BH: From one of the fellows, [Zaymont], if I can find him. He was one of the privates who became a doctor later. I still correspond with him. Our last reunion was held in California and [I didn’t attend]. [Only a very few fellows were able to attend. Most are well over sixty-five years old and many are already gone.] Otherwise we’re heading for it. Peterson I remember him. I was second in command in this company while I was there. We had originally had a captain and then he was moved up to staff, and lieutenant then Philip Crow took over. Then he became a captain and then a dentist afterwards.
[33:14]
AI: And this is a map.
BH: Yes, that shows where we were stationed in England and where we landed, the route we took to Belgium. Back through that of course some of that I wasn’t with. After we hit this border of Germany, I went around. That’s where we got through the German border.
AI: So is this where you were stationed.
BH: Yes.
[34:09]
AI: What did you think of officers or fellow soldiers?
BH: Well, we were pretty much all the same generation and we didn’t find the army too hard; most of us went into the army [from the workforce]. I had worked for my uncle as a painter, and I worked in a steel mill. We found the training was easy. Most of us were strong and athletic. Most of us you know we didn’t find it difficult at all. The fellows that worked the night shift didn’t worry about the army training. We were well most people were very nice and we were sewn together as a group. [When I went in as a private, my two closest companions were a lawyer and a schoolteacher]. Others like myself were laborers of all sorts from all places. We all got along [well]. Of course, we were all white at that time, but in Korea is when we started bringing in the black soldiers. It worked splendidly for us because we found out—that fifteen percent worked perfectly. We integrated. We had the black head tank commander and the rest of the fellows were white. No one thought a thing about it and it worked real well. We were all just ordinary people in the first place. The first company that I was—in well we were only angry at one fellow because we had a perfect record and we were due to leave and he wasn’t there. He got there late, but we were so put together like that. One day when we were out training I forgot my wallet on my bed, and when I got back and it was still there. You didn’t have to worry about things like that. None at all. We had a good unit.
AI: Were you all friendly to each other?
BH: Yes, there was that usual kidding and stuff you’ll hear it of course. When the war was over two different groups now combat veterans can talk awful to one another. I could tell the air corps how lazy they are and everything else, but we’ve all been shot at. Other people can’t do that. We’re all in the same boat. Whether you’ve been in a boat, or in the air corps or on the ground, wherever it’s all the same thing. When you see someone jumping with a parachute you want to cry you know you feel bad. But as far as getting along, we got along. We could borrow money when a fellow got a chance to go home early. You didn’t have to worry about having money because when you needed it a fellow gave it to you, you know. It’s just money, they didn’t even care.
AI: So was it like a family community.
BH: [Yes we really had esprit de corps. I remember telling an officer who I was instructing the importance of esprit de corps and he disagreed with me. I told him it is no an end in itself, but a means to an end]. We had really good officers and they stick together a hundred percent. I got caught in a bad situation once I could hear the guy screaming “Get the hell out of the way get in there and help the lieutenant they’re shooting his head off.” We stuck together. That’s why we survived.
[37:54]
AI: Did you keep a personal diary?
BH: Yes, I sent that to Irene. Let me show you. Might as well. I couldn’t tell Irene everything. I started this so that she would know what was going on. See I could do this at the same time. Literature, this is the sort of stuff that we dropped down. We tried to convince the Koreans to stop hiding you know. This was the number of people killed. I didn’t do this for the Second World War and I was really sorry about that. This is a nice record for her eyes alone only. This is an actual message. That I received in combat and I saved it about “One half hour ago our friends on our left plank spotted several troops in the valley as they were taken under mortar fire and our friends called for a [?] tank and when it was over there was no one there to let it all [?].” These are actual messages from school. This was an actual message “Spotted enemy at so and so lights put out by artillery, all else negative.” Oh the Koreans or the communists they ought to go home, we dropped this all on the fields you know by air. There’s photographs, that was a hill we had to take we had a hard time taking that seven thirty nine. That was an actual photograph.
AI: How did you get that photograph did you take that photo?
BH: I may have, or I may not have. Most of us had cameras in those days you know. We take them with out—In the valley. That’s Korea, oh now that’s oh. Identification, oh lord that’s an old one oh yeah that’s pretty old. Most of those just show the picture of me from our position that’s all. In Korea they generally attacked along the ridgelines and we kept our headquarter supplies along that way. I don’t know why they didn’t attack that way; it would be a lot simpler. But they went through the ridges. And that’s part of a map, that’s how a map looked like the contour map; this is very mountainous it takes a while to learn how to read one.
AI: So the lines mean that it was mountainous?
BH:[ Yes the valleys and the details of the terrain. Also shown are gun positions and the like.]
[42:17]
AI: Do you recall the day your service ended?
BH: [Yes, the last time I walked out, I was with Irene, my fiancée. I came back to the United States was then formally relived from duty. I had to report to Camp Atterbury here in Indiana for my formal release from the army]. That was it but Irene was with me and stayed. Irene did have the experience of staying with me and she enjoyed it very much. She drove down, and took the train down and stayed overnight at the camp. Then we decided to get married she came down and I met her oh about thirty miles away I was training all day. I picked her up at night and that night I brought her back to camp. We went to the officer’s corner and had supper [?] and then we went and stayed with an officer that night. In the morning I went into town and talked them into letting—like you’re supposed to wait three days—but they said we’ve known each other for ten years and they said well that’s long enough. We got out of that. Then I contacted the captain and he was ready when we got back. We were getting ready to leave and the men were getting ready and the first sergeant volunteered to take over my duties on the parade that day. We were having a parade on that day. We were getting married that day. We got married on the fourth you know we had no troubles whatsoever. It worked out real well and we walked out and saw the parade and took off. Then we had finished the training and I had leave coming. So the leave was our honeymoon, and then when I came back they had after our honeymoon I had reported back, and applied to another company and we were getting very [?]. [So a week later I was on a field exercise. We were showing some congressmen how to shoot guns and stuff]. We had it all setup ahead of time of course you know impress them. The major came up and told me that I had got orders from Washington to go and he said you can go now. So I did. I went home and I didn’t expect to go home I expected to stay in sergeant training. Actually I was already in thirty percent disability, but there were others on the boat with me that were also disabled.
AI: What did you do in the days and weeks afterward?
BH: [I came home and went right back to work. Irene and I married on March 24, 1951 at Fort Leonard Wood in Missouri before I was assigned overseas to Korea. We purchased our first home in Griffith, Indiana.
[45:51]
AI: Was your education supported by the G.I. Bill?
BH: No I didn’t use that, I did on my own.
**TAPE STOPPED AND CHANGED TO SIDE B**
BH (continued): [We had a national security seminar in Gary a few years back which I attended. with a colonel from Inland Steel where I was employed. I also took a course offered by the Industrial College of the Armed Forces on the economics of national security.]
[46:16]
AI: Did you make any close friendships while in the service?
BH: Oh very close. When we left the initial camp where we had been we went the first time we left Indiana we were headed for Fort Knox. I remember one was a schoolteacher, Quite fellow, and we became friends right there, the first day. Then when we found out we were going to the same camp together we just hugged each other just like old friends. We were with each other for a couple of days. We got that way you know and then we were together all through the training. When I went to New York he stayed behind. He had a [college] education and he had been selected already to go to officer’s candidate school right from basic training. I wasn’t—but then when I was ordered by the general after I had a couple months service and became a corporal. Then when I went back I found out my friend didn’t make it because he was colorblind. He was awfully mad.
AI: Was he your closest friend?
BH: No, closest friend outside of my own men, I mean those guys were special. In my unit all of those—my other friend was a fellow I met in England just before the invasion. We were training men there getting ready for and I met a fellow there and his name was Webber. Irene met him, met him after the war but we just hit it off together real well.
[48:11]
AI: Did you join a veteran’s organization?
BH: Yes, Disabled American Veterans now they want you to hold an office. I never felt that I could. It was the same way going into politics. I worked [the night shifts at Inland Steel] and that was enough.
[48:49]
AI: Have you met any of the people that have been in service with you?
BH: Yeah, actually sometimes they do. I was working in an inland one day and a fellow walked in that I had known as a private of course we from Gary. He remembered me and he and I had been privates together. Then after the war I started to run I was running it, and one day a fellow walked in. I said “Don’t I know you,” he said “Let’s see Reconnaissance battalion, second armored division, a sergeant a very good sergeant, an excellent soldier.” I asked how old everyone was and how the lieutenant (I forget the name) but I knew the lieutenant real well. He described to me what had happened to him. See they were in an army car and he got hit and he got hit. He hollered at the lieutenant, “Come help me.” The lieutenant was hollering, “I’m hit I’m hit I’m dying,” and the sergeant said, “What the hell do you think I’m doing.” See they were both hit. But they both survived very nice. I had an officer from the eleventh armored division just stop by incidentally one day at my garage. Of course I knew he was in the eleventh armored and I said how did you guys do over there he said, “Well I don’t know.” He said, ‘I missed the boat,” and he missed going over there. They assigned him another [?outpit?] day he was one of the fellows in the picture I showed you. It happens once in a great while that not too long anymore.
AI: How many reunions have you attended?
BH: Oh just one really. We had a second reunion in Ohio. That was the second armored division, but we couldn’t make it. I wanted to go because [Henry Cabot Lodge intended to be there]. We did meet some nice people that way. He was...I admired him because he resigned from the senate to join the army and they don’t do that anymore but he did.
[51:22]
AI: What did you go on to do after your career in the war?
BH: I worked in the steel company, I worked in the garage and I stayed there for thirty-two years. After the World War my brother and I started the garage business. I still ow the business and have some part of it to this day. I stayed in the mill there and I liked it very much. I knew a lot of the people. It was close to home and one of the best experiences. I had there one of the fellows drafted for the Vietnam War. He went to Fort Leonard Wood and when he came back he said he says, “I meet a couple of guys down there that remember you.” I said, “No you’re kidding me.” That’s unusual because the army is big but you do run across a few people who remember!
[52:39]
AI: Did your military experience influence your thinking about war or about the military in general?
BH: Yes, I think we should do away with war definitely. I don’t think you accomplish much with it. It’s time we did something about it. I mean it’s not a matter of politics either it affects both. When you see what’s going on now, my uncle my father almost made the First World War and that was to end all wars. We came home and we thought we did accomplish a lot. Some day we ought to put a stop to it. Of course when you get right down to it my country, may she always be right, but my country right or wrong.
[53:49]
AI: If in a veteran’s organization, what kinds of activities does your post or association do?
BH: I don’t do a great deal. I support most—we have the home for children and stuff like that I support that. Orphan children—and then we try to keep up on the national legislation. Write to them mostly to complain. But that’s about it then we try to encourage everybody to join. A soldier is a soldier a veteran is a veteran they don’t question what war, how he was there, why was he there, justified or unjustified a veteran is always going to stay the same.
[54:46]
AI: How did your service and experience affect your life?
BH: Well I had to postpone getting married, but no I made a lot of friends other than that it was a memorable. You never forget it. You would not take a million dollars; you wouldn’t do it again for a million dollars.
AI: So do you think it was a good experience or do you think it was a good thing that you went into the war?
BH: Yes, I think I came out of the war well adapted. A little trouble afterwards. You come out and you have to put your gun down and you feel a little naked. You’re used to that, and you’re used to that, and your glad to get rid of that. You come out and you’re not able to handle freedom quite the way you do. You’re just not used to it. Signing out every time, you have to account to somebody when you leave the camp. You sign out and sign back in and a lot of people know where you are. Then in civilian life, you don’t have to do that. Till you get married that is.
[56:06]
AI: Is there anything you would like to add?
BH: Oh no I don’t think so. I think it’s awfully nice that they teach you children how to interview like this. See we didn’t do that in high school and yet I could and yet we should. [ I can tell you that you are talking to a man who once talked to a Civil War veteran].Like I tell other people. Teachers and things we can pass on. One of my teachers, a teacher met Laughing Allegra. Do you know who she was, [I shake my head no] well you should honey that’s from Longfellow’s poem The Children’s Hour. He wrote about his children and he knew in fact she identified him by his laughter. It’s kind of a touch from the past and we all have it. My grandfather George knew a couple of the fellows from the Jesse James gang. Didn’t ride with them or anything like that. Just knew ‘em and that’s a touch of the past. Some good some bad. Guess that’s about it.
AI: Thank you so much.
BH: I enjoyed it very much.
[57:54]
